Re: General Chat: The Smashening

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:10 am

I don't care about morals, I'm lawful evil, what I care about are rules and stealing is against the rules, even if it doesn't hurt anyone. You on the other hand are free to do what you want. Also, yeah, I guess I must have missunderstood something

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:21 am

Well, the definition of morals is "a person's standards of behavior or beliefs concerning what is and is not acceptable for them to do" so you DO care about some kind of morals mspa

But sure, you are free to do whatever you want to do.

by d_what Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:26 am

It's an interesting moral debate, best phrased I think in the question: If a man owns a well with infinte water, is it theft to take water from it?

And it's pretty ambiguous, though I think you could make a case that YES, it IS theft, because while you are not robbing him of any water, you ARE robbing him of the money he could sell it to you for - and he does reserve the right to sell it. Unless there's a drought in which case the moral dilemma is on his side.

Conversely, in GameFreak's case, they lose nothing to having Charizard because there is no monetary worth to it and also because we've already paid for the game and we're already part of the PR. Arguably GAME or whoever lose out a bit, but *only* to those who download the Charizard themselves while choosing not to go to a local GAME store. I don't have that option, perhaps you don't either? And finally, any similar distributors of future Charizards also lose out; but this is nebulous and, given GF's track record for Ireland at least, extremely unlikely. In fact, you could almost argue the "drought" clause comes into play; Charizard exists and people are in *relative to the game* need of it, yet they do not (possibly cannot) distribute it fairly. They are obliged, in fact, to give it to us lest they want to lose business. Downloading a Charizard (a free one) actually gives them that kind of business.

boom philosophized aww yeeeah

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:11 pm

The problem is that in the well example, one could presumably talk to the man nd convince him to give the water for free. And if you weren't going to buy the water he'd definitely not lose anything if you were to steal it. The thing about laws however, is that you can't just decide to ignore them, jut because noone is getting hurt. At least not if you consider yourself lawful. Have a imilar example. In berlin, the U- and S-Bahn drive around, no matter if someone is riding it. To ride it, you are supposed to buy a ticket. However, they don't check for tickets all too often. Technically, they don't lose anything if you ride it without a ticket. And as long as they don't check you, nothing bad happens to you either. Would you say it's okay to ride the train without ticket, as long as you aren't getting checked?

by d_what Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:18 pm

No, because that falls under both my previous definition of "are things okay" and whether or not something is hurt. They may not get checked, but they *do* lose the money they'd get from you buying the ticket; they operate at a loss until people actually pay. Sure, we have trains that are gonna run regardless of how many people are on it, and you could say that the extra body weight you add does not require 50 euros extra petrol, but nevertheless they need to make a profit to function and if you don't pay they don't profit. So in a very clear way, someone *albeit a company* IS hurt.

In addition it sets a very poor example for other people. You're far less likely to pay for these things when nobody else is. And then you'll definitely see the transport system losing money. The downloading charizard thing really doesn't set much of an example for anything, since they only people it works for really are those who can't do it any other way.

by Spark Eletran Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:29 pm

oh mY GOD GUYS I JUST NEED TO VENT REAL QUICK
I JUST FINISHED CHAPTER 5 OF SDR2 AND IT MADE ME SO ANGRY AND YET AT THE SAME TIME IT WAS SO PERFECTLY FITTING.

AND NOW I'M SUPER EXCITED FOR CHAPTER 6 TOO.

BUT GODDAMN THEY WERE MY FAVORITE CHARACTER

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:35 pm

See, I think the issue here is that I'm lawful evil while you are probably neutral good. I don't care to make an example, I do care about following rules. And I'm not trying to convince you not to get that Charizard, I'm just trying to explain why I'm not going to download it. Which is because downloading it is basically stealing it, even if noone minds it. And I don't steal because that's illegal.

by d_what Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:13 pm

See, I think that's where we'd differ. I can't fathom a universe in which the alignment system could ever really be a thing. If I was anything, I'd be everything: May as well call me neutral neutral. Instead, I take things on a case-by-case basis. In the past, the "bad things" I have done are limited to:

Downloading the KH2 theme from Youtube
(which I then bought after 8 months once my parents got access to a credit card... I've been laughed at a few times for this one),
and (this one still bothers me)
stealing a 3 euro pack of crazy straws after the pack I bought the previous day were defective. About 2 of them worked? Karma kinda hit me there though, the same amount were defective in that pack too and I ended up with the amount the pack should have had in the first place, which I then distributed amongst my friends and ended up without any. It was an odd experience.
OH YEAH and I short changed a vending machine intentionally once. But. Like. Vending machine. Those things are evil.

And that's about it? I wouldn't defend the straws thing, it was morally wrong, but I think that was my one-time "so what crazy thing did you do during your youth" story that I'll have for future generations. I'm gonna be such a lame dad.

In any case, most of the stuff I do is rather rigorously considered beforehand and, having weighed both sides of the argument, I have come to the conclusion that downloading the Charizard falls squarely under both the "legal" and "morally okay" categories. Obeying rules for the sake of obeying them is not something I do unless the rules are there to encourage the aforementioned "unless someone/thing comes to harm or sets a bad example" motto. Like... "no walking on the grass" I don't walk on the grass, because that damages the grass and gives the gardeners more work, or "silence in the library" i dun and gone shoosh in yon liberry for yon learnders. Basically, stealing water from an infinite well is not stealing water, but it is stealing value and is therefore wrong. Taking the charger is "stealing" infinite data and is thus not stealing data; it has no associated value either and no harm is done to any company, and is therefore permissable - no theft is done.

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:30 pm

Oh man, I want to play SDR2 so badly. Sad

Anyway, here's a more appropriate version of the well example: The man with the infinite well proclaims that all red-haired people are entitled for 1 (one) free bucket of water. Now, is it a theft if you paint your hair red?

Alignment system is not really applicable for real life, as people aren't 2D stereotypes. But even when you are roleplaying you shouldn't follow it 100%ly.

by d_what Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:29 pm

As a red haired person, I assumed this was a much deeper metaphor initially. On a second read I get it - though it could use some work.

In any case me and my red hair are about to try nabbing a Charizardite X; if a local Facebook group's responses are anything to go by, I think it'll be successful.

by muffinz Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:52 pm

d_what wrote:EDIT: why do we all call you Octi, did you ever ask us to call you that? Is it a subconscious reference to Powerpuff girls, or just language in it's purest form? Is it somehow sexist? If you were a guy would we call you Octo?? Why i instead of y?

I should get back to work. I am far too easily distracted.

okay two things:
ilo is a girl? huh i didn't know
"octi" is a reference to something? i just figured it was just "octo" with an i added because of "i"likeoctopus
(for the record i've been pronouncing it "ock-TIE" so a y wouldn't work)

oh yeah also: what in the world is SDR2? i do not think i have ever heard that abbreviation before.

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:10 pm

Super Dangan Ronpa 2

by d_what Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:42 pm

:O http://www.therpf.com/f9/new-pokedex-gba-mod-replica-build-218000/

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:46 pm

That's pretty cool.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:49 pm

I'll check that link later, as for alignment, of course they aren't perfect but there are very few things that are. I think the alignment system is useful, it helps in RPing, because it can give general ideas about how a character would react. In real life, one could make assumptions on a persons alignment based on their reactions, basically working the RP thing backwards. Also, even good aligned people do bad things sometimes, noone is flawless.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:58 pm

phantasmalDexterity wrote:Oh man, I want to play SDR2 so badly.

Anyway, here's a more appropriate version of the well example: The man with the infinite well proclaims that all red-haired people are entitled for 1 (one) free bucket of water. Now, is it a theft if you paint your hair red?

Alignment system is not really applicable for real life, as people aren't 2D stereotypes. But even when you are roleplaying you shouldn't follow it 100%ly.

1) RP characters shouldn't only be definded by their alignment and real people AREN'T just defined by their alignment. But just because something isn't perfect doesn't make it useless.

2) Yes, yes it is, you are purposly creating false informations to get yourself a benefit. And if you take the water without having red hair, then you're doing basically the same as people who cheat while doing their taxes. The ones doing the cheating rarely think what they are doing is wrong but they are still violating rules. It might not literally be stealing but it is most definitely against the rules.

by invisibleTerrarium Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:17 pm

Spark Eletran wrote:oh mY GOD GUYS I JUST NEED TO VENT REAL QUICK
I JUST FINISHED CHAPTER 5 OF SDR2 AND IT MADE ME SO ANGRY AND YET AT THE SAME TIME IT WAS SO PERFECTLY FITTING.

AND NOW I'M SUPER EXCITED FOR CHAPTER 6 TOO.

BUT GODDAMN THEY WERE MY FAVORITE CHARACTER

sdr2 spoilers:

by **Hanky Panky** Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:48 pm

uh

kotakun

is that fingernail polish

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:52 pm

I think that's just the blood under his nails
omg, it's so hard to resist opening that spoiler.

OverlordJ wrote:
phantasmalDexterity wrote:
Anyway, here's a more appropriate version of the well example: The man with the infinite well proclaims that all red-haired people are entitled for 1 (one) free bucket of water. Now, is it a theft if you paint your hair red?
Yes, yes it is, you are purposly creating false informations to get yourself a benefit. And if you take the water without having red hair, then you're doing basically the same as people who cheat while doing their taxes. The ones doing the cheating rarely think what they are doing is wrong but they are still violating rules. It might not literally be stealing but it is most definitely against the rules.

However, the devil is in the detail; the man never said that you need to be a natural red. Only that you need to have red hair. Is it still stealing?

by cephalopodAscendant Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:54 pm

So wait, who do we know this spoofing works for? Actually, why do I care? I can just farm that free copy of X from the one Club Nintendo promotion for Mega Stones. Speaking of which, I should probably beat that eventually.

by Spark Eletran Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:38 pm

THE SECOND, IT

I'M ON CHAPTER 6 NOW

I GOT TO...

sdr2 spoilers:

by **Hanky Panky** Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:40 pm

OverlordJ wrote:Bluh, this is too complicated for me, I've never been good with stuff depending on a meta. Why can't it be easy, like in MtG, where there are multiple formats and you can pick whichever you like, with metas like "boardwipes will get you killed", "win in the first two turns or blue will kick your ass" or "lol, this is a boosterdraft, there is no such thing as a meta" (bonus points to those who can guess which is which)

NINJA'D: That sounds sort of cheaty...

guessing standard for the first... or maybe sealed

legacy

and draft

i don't really pay much attention to sanctioned formats anymore, but those are my guesses and i'm sticking to them

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:58 pm

The first was supposed to be EDH/Commander, where things that piss off all other players usually cause them to gang up on you, which gets you killed. Then again, I guess boardwipes aren't too uncommon in EDH, so I can see where it might have been confusing.

For the second Legacy is right, though I would have counted Vintage as well.

And yeah, the third was pretty obvious.

by **Hanky Panky** Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:46 pm

in my playgroup, board wipes almost never come out until someone decides to play town sheriff. or if they want to win soon. we're not super competitive, except i totally built like 9 board wipes into my oloro deck....

to be fair, like 3 of them are creatures, and the other is that coercive portal from conspiracy. then there's lots of spot removal and reanimation. but mostly there's blood tolls. lots and lots of blood tolls. painful quandary. breathstealer's crypt. blood clock. norn's annex.

no counterspells though. i want people to play their cards.

i just want them to bleed for their decisions.

by Spark Eletran Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:01 pm

fuck me i finished sdr2

all i have to say is

that last execution time yo

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