General chat: Talk about literally anything because you do anyway.

Heheh. That was clever.

Brief interlude: Does anybody remember where I dumped all that team building info before? I haven't touched the game in ages due to busyness and now I've forgotten all the thoughts that went into teambuilding. And I can't find my posts (The ones about haxorus and clefable and that).

Kinda need to sooner or later, since I want this year to be my third consecutive win in the local 'cons VG tourney, and I'm behind on team building. I'm further held back by the fact that I want to go 100% Kalos-legal (just in case - the tourney also bans legendaries) and so much stuff can't yet learn Defog or Stealth Rock or Superpower (Etc). SuxX0rs.

WHO WILL MY HAZARD CONTROL GUYS BE GUYS??? WHO????
Edit: Found it via Google's magic powers

Donphannnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!!

I love Donphan, he's basically my go to spinner. He's bulky as hell and can deal some healthy damage in addition, plus an Assault Vest set works excellently as everything he needs to do can be covered by damaging moves (I still use Lefties personally). I run Earthquake, Rapid Spin (obvs), Ice Shard and Gunk Shot. Gunk Shot is a lovely unexpected fairy smasher, taking out Clefable and Azumarill reasonably comfortably. Don't wanna switch Donphan out, but expect a Rotom-W or Talonflame to come in? Use Gunk Shot, it does neutral damage and may even poison the foe. Earthquake is your powerful STAB. And Ice Shard is extremely handy for the priority. Plus, it does 4x damage to so many things that even just using it as a normal move in a 1vs1 against a Garchomp, or Landorus-T, or Gliscor, will do a hefty chunk of damage. Lando-T is 2HKOd (provided Donphan is not at -1 from Intimidate) for reference. I believe Garchomp is too, but I can't remember exactly. Plus, the priority, of course. Taking out things that are almost definitely faster than you that you'd lose to otherwise is a handy asset indeed. It can take out quite a lot of things it's super-effective against at about 25% health left too.

Oh, and Sturdy means that if you switch in on rock and a non-damage move, you're guaranteed a Rapid Spin, provided your foe is neither a Ghost type (bc Rapid Spin does nothin') or a Mold Breaker (bc U ded lel).
(Note: Gunk Shot is of cours e a BW2 move tutor move though, so not available for you. Poison Jab, it's less powerful-more accurate counterpart, however, is available as a TM).

Or, y'know, just go Excadrill, 'cause he's good too. If you don't have a Rocks setter you could stick 'em on either Donphan or Excadrill. Excadrill has handy dual STABs, one of which also targets fairies, albeit not Azumarill. Excadrill is also quicker and has a higher attack meaning its hits will punch a bit harder than Donphan's. Mold Breaker is also handy for breaking Sturdies and Levitates, so Rotom-W can't switch in on Exca. It does lose out on bulk though, as though its HP is good, it's defense sucks balls, so you're basically just offering up free health to Drain Punchers. One thing that's also worth noting is that Exca can't priority. SO there's that.

Starmie is also very decent and is my personal second choice spinner when Donphan won't work with the team. I tend to try and avoid defoggers where I can (although when I do, hi there Skarmory and Crobat, you're good at that. Latias and Latios can also be used, as can Gliscor and Scizor. Although a lot of those are gen 4 HM only, if not all.) Starmie is a Handy Special sweeper. It's fast, meaning that it'll almost definitely get a spin off before it dies, thus fulfilling its main role on the team. It gets a good moveset that includes Boltbeam, Scald, Hydro Pump, Surf and Psychic or Psyshock, so you've got options too. Useful for teams that need a special attacker, specifically a fast one, and for teams that lack a water/psychic type.

Personally I'd still say Donphan but voila. I think I already did this mini analysis but w/e, here you go again.

I used Donphan to great effect last year. That was on a rain team, too, so it was pretty hard. But the general consensus is Donphan is eclipsed as a Bulky Wall by Hippowdon, as a Spinner by Excadrill, and as a Ground attacker by all of the above plus Garchomp (who can also lay rocks). But what gets me about Donphan is the 4MSS. If you use it, you're gonna want Rapid Spin and Earthquake. Donphan doesn't work without them. Then there's Rocks, a valuable move well worth the slot, leaving one more move. Ice Shard is fine chip damage against weaker things, but does terrible damage. Knock Off is the way to go, but then you lose out on the priority... And, to add to that, Sturdy is basically a non-ability on a Rapid Spinner. That applies to Skarmory and Ferrothorn too - they only use the ability to set multiple hazards at the start of the game, something Donphan can't do (and doesn't really have the bulk to anyway).

But mostly I'm held back by the fact that I need Kalos-only  (breed-in-Kalos, anyway) Pokemon and that cuts out almost all the good Defoggers bar Scizor, and almost all of the good Stealth Rockers, bar Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, IIRC. It's very difficult to fit them to my team as it stands. The second (and generally more important thing) is any Pokemon I add to this team has to actually be worth the cost-benefit; Donphan, for example, struggles against the Zards, Rotom, Venusaur, and a bunch of other nasty threats I'm weak to.


Team process repost for posterity:

Spoiler:

d_what wrote:In related topics, yay Smash Bros new wooo. (Still hoping for Bayonetta or some characters from Wonderful 101 though, Wii U needs support and Smash is ultimately a showcase)
(Though Bayonetta isn't a great fit for the series)
(Plus Zero Suit samus would steal just a bit of her thunder)
(Also, too many characters)
(Isaac??? More Fire Emblem guys? Ganon? The end of Captain Falcon? Mr. Game and Watch? Somebody from Monolithsoft? One more Pokémon please, preferably a newer one? Mewtwo's cool but they should be showing off newer stuff really? Ness? There are literally SO many characters I can see as possibilities. Reasonable ones, too. Not all this Sora or King K.Rool bull. Likelihoods, guys. Gotta think in likelihoods.)

bayonetta- yeah nope cant see that
Wonderful 101- okay yes that DOES have some chance
Isaac- eh idk maaaybe?
Fire Emblem Guys- we definitely have at least one more coming. if it's ike or a new one, who knows. apparently this chrom person in the new ones really popular and important so they might get in
Ganon- yes. ganondorf is the biggest reason they've kept link and zelda in their tp design i think, because there ISN'T a skywards sword ganondorf. you could say they might drop him cause he hasnt been relevant since tp, either... but may i remind you theyve kept a character that has literally been in one game in the entire series and wasnt relevant at all in any of the others (sheik) ?
capn falcon is definitely in
game and watch is most likely in
somebody from monolith soft? dude the first real life fighter has to be reggie sorry maybe for smash 5 (seriously tho, maybe. i could see that happening)
i think jigglypuffs probably returning, but a new pokémon? kiiinda doubt it
ness is in. no questions.

Why though spark? Why adhere to patterns just because they've always done it? There's no rule saying that Captain Falcon or Jigglypuff have to be in it just because they always have. That means little for either of them if they're not popular, or in Mr.Falcon's case, a basically abandoned game series. Anyway Jigglypuff was only in there because it was easy to copy from Kirby, not because anyone really wanted it. Hilarious/deadly dud character or not, it doesn't add to the series any more than a better Pokemon representative would. At least Mr.Game and Watch can say that yeah, Nintendo have existed for this long. As I said, Smash is a showcase.

And on that note, characters from Platinum or Monolith Soft would be a good idea as they're basically second-party at this point with all the love nintendo has thrown at them lately. But they need more attention; Wonderful 101 was apparently a great game to own, but didn't really sell. Support! Likewise, the Wii U could score a lot of new users with Bayonetta or Monolith's new X game, and while I can't see Bayonetta in it for a number of reasons (Not for lack of trying though, before the rabid twitterers annoyed the crap out of him, Bayonetta's creator was all for her being in Smash), notably a general "not suitable" label and also inhouse competition from the Wonderful 101, Shulk from Xenoblade chronicles represents a NOT dead-ended, fresh, and highly applauded series who also is a great fit for the game. Way more than Snake was!

The downside is that Smash, so far anyway (and there really aren't a lot of examples to go by yet) has only included non-first party characters as playable ones when they've represented MAJOR series from external companies; Snake, Sonic, Megaman. All pretty iconic. Shulk and the 101 unfortunately do not have this... which is exactly why they should be given the opportunity! Look at what happened with Kid Icarus and tell me that would not be a great thing to happen under Nintendo's wing for a non-nintendo IP. (Which by association Bayonetta now is apparently, says the creator.)

@Dee: As I said, I use Gunk Shot on my Donphan, and it's surprisingly effective. A Neutral 120 base power move is nasty, especially coming off 120 attack. It puts a dent into anything that switches in on it. It basically guarantees the death of whichever fairy is trying to attack Donphan, and that's a really valuable asset to have, especially on a team that has Scrafty and Greninja and nothing else directly able to combat the type (Liligant also deals nicely with the most common offender, Azumarill). So based on that, I'd definitely say that Donphan doesn't have 4MSS. He does have other options. A reasonably amount, too. I stick my rocks on my Aerodactyl, and my Knock off on someone who makes far better use on it anyway (Scrafty), so that's why I use the set I do.

I actually kinda feel like Donphan for me personally outclasses Excadrill. Even Air Balloon Excadrills are dealt with easily by Donphan. 15 more base attack is significant, sure, but equally, Excadrill's moveset doesn't quite have what he needs it to in order to be lethal. Earthquake is easily avoided, and Iron Head is good against far too little to be that useful imo. The other moves Excadrill has won't dent anything enough either. But I guess that's just my personal opinion. I do rather like Excadrill, I just much prefer Donphan.

jigglypuff is easily the character of the original twelve who has the most chance of being cut, but even then, she still IS relevant now that shes gained fairy-typing, and isnt just completely hated by the entire fandom.
captain falcon though i am completely, 100% sure is coming back. He might be from an "abandoned game series" yes, but so were the Ice Climbers. So was Pit (more emphasis on was on this one). Falcon is just an iconic Smash character by now, specially with his falcon punch and how much personality he has. It doesn't matter if he hasn't had games in a while. The ones he had, as well as his character in general, are VERY well loved by the fandom, and you can bet if he was removed, the resulting uproar would be just ENORMOUS.

Yeah, I highly doubt they'll cut any of the original twelve. At this point they're iconic Smash characters; the game just wouldn't be the same without them.

Honestly, by now I think more people know him from Smash then from his original game, he's more a Smash character then anything else by now

Samus is kind of from an abandoned series at this point in time

Ice Climbers and I think Megaman are too but I don't know anything about either series.

I don't think Ice Climbers ever got a second game. And it definitely feels like Capcom is trying to kill off Megaman lately.

lately as in the past ~5 years.

Okay I think I've settled on a preliminary solution for my team problems.

Firstly, Physically Defensive Tyranitar, with SR, Fireblast and STAB coverage. Counters Talonflame, lures in the bulky steel types, and does heavy damage to Zard X and Zard Y - though if Zard Y comes in on a missed Stone Edge and retaliates with an accurate Focus Blast then I'm in trouble. But Ttar tanks Fireblast, Solarbeam and Earthquake with little trouble, even in Sun. It's neither as Bulky nor as fast as I'd like, though: If it could tank physical water moves and Y's Focus Blasts then I'd be happy. Also, Sandstorm necessitates my Clefable run Wish as opposed to Moonlight, but eh.

Then, Excadrill. Shitty weaknesses to Water and Fighting, but Fighting should be covered by my next Pokemon and by Clefable, I hope. Mostly it's there to guarantee a Rapid Spin and to provide a speedy check to the Zards again. Because of this, I'm torn between Scarf Mold Breaker, which lets me take on Rotom and is a good all-round revenge killer, but can't sweep, and SD Sand Rush, which can sweep and punch holes that Haxorus can't, but leaves me COMPLETELY open to Rotom-W and is dependent on the measly 5 turns of sand offered by Tyranitar. Also, I can't run Iron Head because Tutors, which suck.

And finally, Talonflame, which takes down an awful lot of things that I've managed to do some damage to, and rounds off the Zard coverage, in addition to Ferrothorn and, importantly, Venusaur. I'm thinking Band this time, for instant power, though if I go Scarf with Excadrill then SD is an option for another chance at physical sweeping. Tailwind is a benefit to Band, though, and my team is otherwise moderately slow. Needs Rapid Spin, but Excadrill covers that. Unfortunately, Ttar, Tflame and Excadrill (sans Mold Breaker) are all weak to Rotom-W, which does lock me   into the Scarf'd Excadrill set. Not exactly ideal.

Threats:
I'm scared of Gyarados; Thunderbolt isn't always going to suffice, since Clefable's not gonna last forever. Especially when it has coverage moves to take down basically all of my team, and has DD to boot. Losing the Rock weakness on megavolving is also scary.

Landorus (Incarnate): Dear god this thing is horrible. Sheer Force with a crazy long list of coverage moves with added effects; who would ever think a set with Psychic and Sludge Wave would become popular?? Ugh. Sludge Wave takes out Clefable in one hit and can maul the rest of my team. Rocks don't even help a whole lot. And it's not even a Choice user!!

Sleep: Should Mega Venusaur intend to Sleep Powder my Talonflame, I am in srs trouble. No status absorbers. Similarly, Pokemon spamming Knock Off are not really pleasant, unless somehow my Haxorus has already lost its Lum Berry, which is rare and also bad.

Things That I Only Really Have One Check To That Will Become A Huge Problem When Said Check Has Been Removed: Talonflame and Clefable do so much for my team :(I really can't let them faint at all. But maybe that's normal?

Also probably other stuff but I can't think of anything major, though not having access to Phazing sucks a lot if I'm set up on.

Thoughts?

I see a glaring Mega Aggron problem. Those three are entirely physical attackers, and Aggron has coverage moves for all of them.

I am so fucking sick right now it isnt even funny uuuuuugh

Mega Aggron is "moderately" problematic. I don't have a single set that will take it out and counter it, nor burn it; but Tyranitar's Fire Blast is a 3HKO (addmittedly I lose Tyranitar afterwards) and Flare Blitz is a 2HKO - though the tank set OHKOs with Rock Slide. Rest Talk, on the other hand, can heal off much of the damage (and burn chances) I do but is unable to damage Talonflame in return. That's where Flare Blitz has an unfortunate downside... I do damage and kill myself in the process. It's hardly ideal but MegAggron is still somewhat beatable through attrition and is not a major threat in the meta. Whereas I imagine everyone and their mother will be running Charizard...

my only thought was that firstly is not a word. you don't need the "ly" at all.

Wow. Mind blown; I'd never ever spotted that. But I'm discounting it because of the US/Everywhere else English differences; firstly and its cousins are apparently uncommon in the US. You can have it when you start sharing Chipotle. And because firstly's use is specifically for using enumerated points; I had three well defined ones, and I don't have any issue with using niche words as long as they are appropriate. If we started eliminating all redundant words in the dictionary we'd be speaking a pretty shitty language.

And frankly...
And frank, (?) I'm just relieved that I actually remembered to make more than one point after starting with firstly. I've done the opposite more than once in the past...

No, frankly is still good. It's just firstly that's not great English.

Primarily, on the other hand...

Primarily doesn't just mean first, though. It has other connotations. Good word all the same. "Primarily." If only I could stop thinking of Primark I'd use it more often.

Incidentally (Incidental!) Primark is called Penneys over here. It may or may not have the apostrophe.

And I wouldn't say Firstly is poor english; it's certainly not the epitome of GREAT english, but it's not bad english. Bad American english perhaps, but that's a whole other tallcircle of worms.

d_what wrote:And I wouldn't say Firstly is poor english; it's certainly not the epitome of GREAT english, but it's not bad english.

You do realize that the middle part of this sentence is almost exactly what I just said, right?

As a German person, I just want to say that firstly, I love the word "firstly" and all related words, secondly I seem to remember learning it in school, so it can't be THAT wrong and thirdly I just love odd spelling and words that are uncommon but not stricktly wrong. Like noone for example.

Yeah I know, I was just covering all the bases. Hence the caps - "not great" can be taken (albeit inaccurately) to mean "poor", it's standard colloquial.

On that note, I LOVE the word colloquial. It's useful and it sounds like it'd be a fun drink, one with an umbrella in it.

Xaber has used firstly too, that's three not-US countries with it used. Decent example of the language divide.

Spoiler:

well see firstly is wrong because you're listing points and by saying first OR firstly you're basically saying this:

1.
so saying "first/firstly, second/secondly, finally" is the same thing as this:

1.
2.
3.

which is why firstly is incorrect. it's not uncommon or a regional thing. it's just incorrect english.

like alot (a lot), alright (all right), irregardless (either regardless or irrespective works here. you're basically mashing two words together into some nonsense syllables), and I could care less (which is I couldn't care less. as in you care very little).

furthermore, in case you wanted more of today's grammar lesson, there is a distinct difference between farther and further. farther measures concrete distance. as in, "just a few kilometers farther." further measures metaphorical distance, such as discussing philosophy at length.

english is a strange language.