General Chat: The Smashening

The extra L stands for Loquacious... but the missing I stands for Irrelevantly.

IT WILL FOREVER REMAIN A MYSTERY

Well, I really like Aegislash, so I think it'll get banned. Things I like are often OP

Uh why the hell are you banning Lando, Thundurus, Mawile and even Chari X when there's something much more centralising to the game that shits on so many things completely?

I'm talking about Talonflame of course. To beat Talonflame, you have to:
1. Have a rock type
or
2. Have something Bulky enough to take one hit and OHKO back.
or
3. Have something with a sash and a rock move.

Sneaky Pebbles help, but frankly, they're not good enough when you have a +1 Priority 120 Base Power move coming your way from a fast Pokemon. If Talon holds a Sharp Beak/Life Orb a Brave Bird OHKOs Bulky Scrafty, which is impressive. And the fact that you have to run one of the aboves means that Talonflame's presence in itself centralises the Meta, and far moreso than the ones you listed do. Lando of both types have a wide variety of checks and counters. Thundurus is annoying but pretty easily dealt with by a lot of things. Mega Mawile I hardly even ever see in OU, and even when I do I personally never have problems dealing with it. Now, as this is coming from a guy who uses Fighting and Fire types a lot, maybe this is biased. Of course Talonflame is gonna wreck my team, and of course Mega Mawile will die to a strong, quick fire move. But I still think that Talon centralises OU as much as if not more than the ones you listed, so if anything should go first, it's that.

//opinions

you know if smogon goes and bans the best pokemon in ou then eventually there will be no ou at all

all hail the sunkern battles

Actually, now I kind of want to see an all-Sunkern metagame, just for the lulz.

On the Smogon Facebook page, Talonflame often gets mentioned for the thing which should be suspect tested next. But on Smogon itself, the opposite is true; while it might get tested, most people appreciate it being there.

Reason being, it is the best check in the history of checks, tied only with Deoxys S and even then probably better, while having it's own little niche. The biggest problem with Talonflame is not that it's OP, it's that it shits on hyper offense and, to be frank, shitty strategy/team building. The things Talonflame OHKOs are pretty notable and and it 2HKOs even more, but all of them, sans weaknesses, are frail offensive sweepers (e.g Gardevoir, who Talonflame properly laughs at). Nobody really wants a meta centered around Hyper Offense, or even raw Offense, so in that regard TFlame is a good Pokemon to have around. It's like Rotom W, too; it's a good friend to many other Pokemon because of it's relatively unique typing and niches. This gen is *definitely* a gen full of new niches.

The trade of is, against a well balanced team, Talonflame can't sweep, it can only check; taking the role that Scarfers used to have. Talonflame's Base 81 or whatever Atk really is weak, and before you say "But it OHKOs me!" you have to remember it's either gonna be running Swords Dance or Band. Swords Dance, without a boost, can't sweep ANYTHING and can only check things in a pinch (though is an instant liability to any Grass type. What do you expect? It's Fire/Flying). And WITH a boost, it's days are numbered. Opportunities to switch in are limited, and it's only notable moves (besides U-Turn, which removes the boost) while powerful, are heavy recoil. Stealth Rock + An OHKO = dead, An OHKO + a non-resisted attack + any move whatsoever = dead, 2 OHKOs = dead. Priority roost is more of a necessity than it is a boon. And that's it's biggest weakness really, moreso than any single Pokemon is - it can do it's job but not for long. This is where Stall and Bulky Offense wins out; all you have to do to beat a Talonflame is survive long enough for it to kill itself. Resistant typing helps but is not necessary, hell you can sac a Ferrothorn or a Chansey if you want and watch as it dies and you do nothing. It's as simple as any other Pokemon (e.g. Azumarill, Gliscor) to find counters for, and if for whatever reason you can't, it has a million checks. Smart switching is the bane of any SD Tflame player because it can't afford to waste moves, likewise physically Bulky Pokemon that can spam moves or Recover are also solid checks. Or Intimidate.

Then there's the Band set, which does have raw power. But Captain, R.E the Band set, which is the most common, all you're complaining about it it keeps checking your mons. That's the only thing it can do well; it can't sweep unless you've eliminated everything on the team that is resistant to either Flying or Fire and even then it can't do it for long before KOing itself. It can't even choose it's kills properly like Gengar can if you switch out and predict the hit that was coming; Band TFlame gives a lot of opportunity to a smart player, giving tons of setup opportunities. Both forms also hate Toxic and especially Thunder Wave, which is pretty common, and priority Taunt will ruin the SD set. Predicting a switch will mean some kind of hurt for a Talonflame. Ultimately this IS a game of checks and we're not really in a position to complain about that anymore, without checks the game would be a race of "who can set up first" and unfortunately if you're the kind of person who tries to set up a Breloom, a Volcarona, a Gardevoir, or a Scrafty while a Talonflame exists on the opponent's team, then it reflects far more on you as a player than it does on the spicy bird. That's just common sense! 

Relevant quotes on the topic:

"Besides most Rock and Electric types, any bulky attacker (Rotom W/H, Garchomp, etc) and most physical walls (Gliscor, Hippowdon, Quagsire, etc), it's almost unbeatable! Pls ban immediately."


"It's not broken it's just really anti metagame
People prefer to run speed over bulk 
And talon flame screws that over"


"When people stop running nothing but speedy sweepers, then things will calm down."


"Because of its terrible defensive typing?
4x weakness to Rock moves and vulnerability to Stealth Rocks?
Terrible recoil from its primary STAB's?
Rotom-W, bulky electric, etc?
....The inevitable incoming Heatran who will wall it indefinitely?"

There's some other stuff too. Things like "it's biggest counters are rock types and other than Tyranitar Game Freak hates Rock Types", so it's actually an incentive to use more Rock types, e.g. Rhyperior. And if/when it gets access to Flying Gem I will definitely agree the SD set becomes scarier, because it no longer KOs itself as easily at the (worth it) cost of being slightly weaker, but at least it's a big F U to people who spam Knock Off. 


Scarf HP Fire Sunkern all the way, brah. Unless the opponent is running Assault Vest then I'm kinda screwed.
Hey wait. If the meta is ENTIRELY SUNKERN there's no point running STAB moves? It'd just be a HP Fire (or Ice etc) Spamfest! (Oh, no: Actually Sludge Bomb. This sounds like a fun meta to try. Could we do it?)

Sunkern is OP, plz nerf!

Quality posts here guys!

Spoiler:

Seriously though the more I think about it the more I think it would be fun. Level 50, Item Clause, 6v6; all Sunkern. We could do it on Showdown.

EDIT: YAAAAAY I don't know if I told you guys, I probably did but you've probably forgotten, while I was working last year I bought a cool Mega Evolution shirt as my first novelty shirt and I was really happy with it until my aunt washed it and the colours stained. And when I went to get a second one the shipping had doubled the price  Well for whatever reason I googled it again today and LO AND BEHOLD the shipping is free internationally today so I bought another one wooooh!! So happy  just under 17 euro for a really good shirt! http://society6.com/product/pokemon-xy-megavolution_t-shirt#11=50&4=79&5=19

Those battles would either last for-fucking-ever or be boring as shit.

Actually, I did the math. A neutral 252 invested Sludge Bomb OHKOs any regular Sunkern; under an Eviolite or Assault Vest with max defensive investment it's a 3HKO at most. The main thing would be discovering what items your opponent is running, because off the top of my head a physical Natural Gift set (run Kebia to do Poison/Reduce Poison damage), Specs, Scarf (!!! Very important), Eviolite and Sash(Endeavor?) set would be staples, but there's a lot of variation. For example, Timid/Jolly Scarf might be faster than everything, but what if it can't take the KO against the deadly Wall Sunkern, who OHKOs in return? Would running Modest/Adamant be worthwhile? What about Sunny Day, use HP fire and bypass all those Kebia Sunkerns? Or Growth? So (few) many options!

Hell if we actually did it we could gradually introduce more shitmons. Magikarp ROX SOX, followed by, umm, some terrible fire type maybe.

Let's just make a new tier for baby mons like Magby and Cleffa and spend 30 pages discussing the morality of forcing newborn Pokemon to fight to the death.

That'd be a really small tier since there aren't a lot of babies, but then we're talking about a tier entirely made of Sunkern...

Riolu would be number 1 in a baby tier though, with the Normal and Fairy types following behind it probably.

I'm thinking, if we were to introduce more Pokemon to the Sunkern tier, I'd nominate Spinarak. Followed by Klink, Snubbull and Bidoof; Klink and Snubbull would probably end up being OP under support or offense but Bidoof is funny because it's base speed is 31. At level 50 he out speeds all of the other Pokemon I mentioned by exactly 1 point. SO FAST
(In my head it's a tier where you bring 3 Sunkern and any 3 of the others under item clause. The Snubbull will probably be the equivalent of a Mega!)

Riolu would easily be no 1. It gets Prankster, that alone is enough bs.

I mean it's already pretty good in little cup, all you'e doing by limiting its foes it making it worse.

Yeah, the fact that something in the game even *gets* priority Roar is pretty weird. And even without that stuff it's not even a bad Pokemon.

I wish little cup was more of a thing. Closest I've ever been was Sashay's cup in PBR and I never bothered to train anything for it.

Wait, is Riolu a baby?

At base 60 Speed, A choice Scarved Riolu is only beaten by Voltorb, Diglett, Elekid and Murkrow in little cup. It ties with Meowth, Poliwag, Abra and Ponyta. That's in little cup.

You'd have to go for one of these or a Priority to move to stop Endless Roar spam (Roar onto entry hazards, win). That's still a decent amount of things to get rid of Riolu, but it'll still nasty if not dealt with quickly.

Gale Wings Fletchling LAUGHS at Riolu though.

IT I HaVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO SAY

ANDROID DOESNT SUPPORT FLASH

HAS TIMMY FALLEN DOWN A WELL?
WHO IS TIMMY, IT?

HE MEANS "YOU'VE GOT THAT WRONG!"

ROAR HAS -1 PRIORITY

PRANKSTER MAKES IT NORMAL

COPYCAT CAN'T COPY ROAR

THERE U GO

Copycat can and does copy roar! At +1 priority... Except apparently it doesn't since XY?? Wow game freak that...really was quite the redundant nerf you just pulled. I mean, seriously. Who cares about what Riolu does. Little Cup is ALREADY a mess. Captain's right though nerf or no nerf Fletchling lol's all over it.
#savePranksterRoar #YesAllRiolu

#SparkConfirmedForTimmy
#woof

Timmy is a person who enjoys big creatures and flashy spells, why do you ask? Let me see if I can find the picture...

EDIT: Found it

Timmy, Power Gamer:

but why would he get trapped in a well? its a green card so hed get trapped in a treehouse
or would it be whatever the opposite of green is that hed be trapped in? so hed get trapped in a volcano because thats what i think the red one is

as you can tell i am so experienced with magic

But Kotakun, Red and Green are buddies, it is Blue and Green that don't get along. So the Blue mages trapped Timmy in their well.

why the fuck are red and green buddies? why the fuck do green and blue not get along? respectively they are completely across from each other and right next to each other or evenly spaced but then shouldnt all three be equally for and or against each other? either that or cyclic ala pokemon but it couldnt really be buddies if it was cyclic wait are the colors backwards so green beats red beats blue beats green and so green is buddies with red because it beats it and likewise doesnt like blue because it loses to it?

Yeah and also, Purple. 

Psssst OJ get on Serebii because there's a Pokeball Patterned Vivillon Event happening somewhere in Germany, which is probably useless to you but considerably less so than it is for, say, Xaber.

I kinda wish you could breed for Vivillon Patterns.
OR OR OR breed your own via some technological breedy magic. Like... random symmetric areas of Vivillon's wings are taken from the parents. 'Course most of the time you'd just end up with colourdy noise patterns, but hey I wouldn't object. The coding would be a little intense though, because you'd have to implement a Spinda-style forme change and have each sprite reference an area of the Vivillon's ID taken from its parents.

Buuuuuut Garden Pattern is pretty nice so I don't mind.