Re: The TCG Corner

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:00 pm

Well, lets see...

If you want them to be speedy, you need some speedy cards. I used Shire as one of them because with the effect I suggested, she is pretty useless outside of a Lightsworn deck. If she gets a boost depending on the cards currently in your graveyard she'll turn into another Tarmogoyf (kind of) and that would just make her broken.

I actually added that bit to Aurkus, by changing Hexproof to Shroud. However, that can only work for the ones on the field. And to be honest, Lumina isn't that good right now and making her better would quickly make her broken.

Rinyan is still useful in late game but not much in early game with the changes I suggested, which makes it much weaker.

Gragonith does fit nicely into what you said with the changes I suggested, since it is strong but too expensive compared to the other cards.

Celestias effect was indeed for balance, giving her even a single vindicate effect would probably break her, not even to meantion giving her two. There are creatures like that and they cost 8 mana, IIRC

Ryko doesn't need to be attacked, in fact, you can't normally attack a creature in mtg at all, which is an important difference between Yu-Gi-Oh! and MtG, because it makes getting rid of weak creatures with strong effects much harder. The reason I changed it to attacking creatures only is because that is much weaker and thus acceptable for his cost. Also, killing attacking creatures is more fitting for White.

Jenis isn't really that good the way I suggested her either, so, shrug?

Destroying everything is not something White does normally and it would certainly have to be much MUCH more expensive, which contradicts the whole being fast thing. He's freaking strong already.

And yes, Lumina can use her effect right away, summoning sickness only stops attacking and effects that require you to tap. Though it's so expensive it's not going to get used. I shall look at the original to see if I can find a way to make her work.

Meanwhile, enjoy this deck I made with the cards if they were as I suggested them:

Lightsworn Rush:

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 5:24 pm

Ugh, I should probably go check all the lightsworn sometime, the restriction for Lumina can be translated into a fitting restriction in MtG that'll make her much more usable

by d_what Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:39 pm

Haha this has been fun OJ Very Happy

If we were playing in a funsies tournament I would definitely print out some of these on cardstock and pretend my way to the top. Or in sight of the top. From the bottom somewhere.

Though Lightsworns aren't all just about the archetype, and that's not even covering the newer ones. For a start, there's no Michael, Minerva and Raiden in the cards covered by the Tumblr post, and they're pretty important nowadays (Michael because he's generically good, not as much as JD, but easier to summon because of Raiden, and Raiden because he can mill DURING your turn whenever you choose rather than at the end, being a decent Beatstick, and allowing for easy combos with Lumina and Michael summoning. Minerva just because.) Raiden is a 3-off (two for me because they're expensive) alonside JD and Lumina, which goes to show how important it is.

(As for translating Michael into MTG... he's a Synchro, they go into a side deck so they're never ever in the deck or the hand; you can summon him with no cost EXCEPT you have to sacrifice a Tuner monster (Raiden, Minerva or Plaguespreader) and another Light monster so that there combined level = 8. Raiden + Wulf/Garoth/Lyla/Jain/Aurkus does this, or Minerva + Celestia. It's pretty easy since it can be done as soon as any combination of those cards are in play - but that's a very difficult thing to express in another game. Hmmmmm. Unless Raiden had an additional effect that, upon tributing himself and, say, a Lightsworn Warrior (most of which are the 4s, except Lyla) summons a Michael from the Deck/Library or Hand without Michael's cost, which would be really prohibitively high otherwise.

Also Plaguespreader Zombie, Necro Gardna and Honest (with NGardna being the most important) are also keystones of the strategy. Necro Gardna blocks any attack by banishing itself at any time from the graveyard. Black Luster Soldier only gets summoned when you banish one Light and one Dark monster from the Graveyard... I would hazard that this would be ridiculously easy in MTG. BLS has always been pretty broken anyway. And as for spells/traps: Beckoning Light discards your entire hand (Wulf, Necro, Plaguespreader being great discards) and then returns Light monsters in your graveyard to your hand equal to the amount of cards you discarded. That's probably doable? Foolish Burial simply puts a card in your deck into your graveyard; you can only have 1 of these in Yugioh - I think it's pretty similar to your exhume or whatever it was. And monster reincarnation discards one card and returns a monster in the graveyard to the hand. That also seems kinda doable? I dunno what do you think Neutral

There's also Dark Armed Dragon, Gorz, Tragoedia and more Synchros but I don't think they'd blend too well in MTG since they're meta-specific.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:49 pm

Okay, first of all, I made some fixes to the existing monsters.

Spoiler:

I'll take a look at those others and see if I can figure something out but synchro will probably just not work.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:20 pm

d_what wrote:Though Lightsworns aren't all just about the archetype, and that's not even covering the newer ones.

Well of course not, just look at the deck I posted above, Brawn, Valor and Glory are great examples of what you are thinking of, I think.

For a start, there's no Michael, Minerva and Raiden in the cards covered by the Tumblr post, and they're pretty important nowadays (Michael because he's generically good, not as much as JD, but easier to summon because of Raiden, and Raiden because he can mill DURING your turn whenever you choose rather than at the end, being a decent Beatstick, and allowing for easy combos with Lumina and Michael summoning. Minerva just because.) Raiden is a 3-off (two for me because they're expensive) alonside JD and Lumina, which goes to show how important it is.

(As for translating Michael into MTG... he's a Synchro, they go into a side deck so they're never ever in the deck or the hand; you can summon him with no cost EXCEPT you have to sacrifice a Tuner monster (Raiden, Minerva or Plaguespreader) and another Light monster so that there combined level = 8. Raiden + Wulf/Garoth/Lyla/Jain/Aurkus does this, or Minerva + Celestia. It's pretty easy since it can be done as soon as any combination of those cards are in play - but that's a very difficult thing to express in another game. Hmmmmm. Unless Raiden had an additional effect that, upon tributing himself and, say, a Lightsworn Warrior (most of which are the 4s, except Lyla) summons a Michael from the Deck/Library or Hand without Michael's cost, which would be really prohibitively high otherwise.

Yeah, I'll look at those three but I doubt that there is a good way to represent synchros.

Also Plaguespreader Zombie, Necro Gardna and Honest (with NGardna being the most important) are also keystones of the strategy. Necro Gardna blocks any attack by banishing itself at any time from the graveyard. Black Luster Soldier only gets summoned when you banish one Light and one Dark monster from the Graveyard... I would hazard that this would be ridiculously easy in MTG. BLS has always been pretty broken anyway.

I'll look at those but yeah BLS is a no go, I can tell you that already. MtG just doesn't do special summons.
Necro Gardna could probably work as a green/black or white/black creatur though the effect would probably cost at least one or two mana, and even for two mana that'd be freaking awesome.

And as for spells/traps: Beckoning Light discards your entire hand (Wulf, Necro, Plaguespreader being great discards) and then returns Light monsters in your graveyard to your hand equal to the amount of cards you discarded. That's probably doable? Foolish Burial simply puts a card in your deck into your graveyard; you can only have 1 of these in Yugioh - I think it's pretty similar to your exhume or whatever it was. And monster reincarnation discards one card and returns a monster in the graveyard to the hand. That also seems kinda doable? I dunno what do you think

Not only doable, most of those have already been done. Returning creatures from the graveyard to your hand is a piece of cake for black, they just usually don't bother with it because they can just return the creatur directly into play. Green can do it a little, too, which is actually the function of that Charm spell in the deck I posted. Returning lots of cards is usually expensive though, so it would be too slow for you. Foolish Burial is exactly like Entomb, except I think you can have four entombs. And Buried Alive lets you do the same with three creatures for three mana. As for Monster Reincarnation, as I said above, you don't even need to discards for that, Black has been able to do that for just one mana for ages.

There's also Dark Armed Dragon, Gorz, Tragoedia and more Synchros but I don't think they'd blend too well in MTG since they're meta-specific.

I'll see what I can do about those.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:01 pm

Okay, so, I took a look at them.

Okay, so, first of all, Minerva is not possible. Not that her effect can't be done but white dragon tribal support is not acceptable. Any colour can HAVE dragons but only red gets tribal support for them.

Raiden could be made to work nicely, though with the way I'm currently imagening him, he'd be overshadowed by Ehren. Is that okay for you?

I have an idea that could work for Michael.

For Necro Gardna, I'd suggest this:

(Necro Gardna):

For Plaguespreader Zombie, there are already a couple similar creatures, most notably Reassembling Skeleton, anything more similar would probably be broken.

Making Honest work would probably either result in a broken or in a useless card, so I'm unsure what to do.

Dark Armed Dragon has the same issue as BLS

Gorz could be used far too easily on the first turn, unless we make him cost a lot of mana, which'll weaken him significantly.

Tragoedia is similar, it could work but it'd cost a lot of mana and that'd make her sort of pointless.

by OverlordJ Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:11 pm

For Michael, I was thinking about an old keyword that few people even remember, because it got barely used. The keyword is [creature type] offering (You may cast this card any time you could cast an instant by sacrificing a [creature type] and paying the difference in mana costs between this and the sacrificed [creature type]. Mana cost includes color.)

by **Hanky Panky** Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:14 am

oh look kamigawa block keywords!

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:42 am

Question r.e. Lumina: how's that work? I know you said it was difficult to balance. But what's a converted mana cost? Specifically - can Wulf get summoned? He's the upper bound of anything that Lumina can get, alongside Raiden. In fact the only thing she can't get are Celestia and Gragonith (JD and Michael don't count.) Without Lumina, Wulf is absolute gutter trash. WITH her he's really quite nice, despite the lack of "light cycle." Also is that once-per-turn per card, of just per turn? Lumina can chain discarded/grave'd luminas but if that would break her then okay. I love Ehren's new effect: it seems so balanced. With Ehren the onus is always on the opponent to avoid her effect activating, this echoes it.

Question: does the upkeep step happen at the start of your turn? That'll have a pretty drastic effect on the card efficiencies - especially early game, since you don't have much in the graveyard to begin with. Although I suppose if t1 goes "upkeep: no LS monsters, no mill" followed by "summon lumina" and then an ENTIRE ROUND going before light cycle goes, then that would impact them pretty negatively. Mostly regarding things like Wulf and Necro Garnda who are typically readied after your turn but before the opponents. I'll chalk that up to a balance thing.

Aaaand the thing about Monster reincarnation is you *want* it for its cost. If there was a card that just returned things to the hand it wouldn't be half as usable in a Lightsworn deck. There are just too many combos missed out on without it. But it seems doable nonetheless though?

I'm not certain if I understand Michael's thingy, but if it is how I think it is, could Raiden then have an effect that declares a new cost (once he's already been played of course) and then he has that cost? Because that sounds like a free summon with any other LS card where Michael is involved. Raiden... Isn't really similar to Ehren. In any way. At all? Ehren's a one-off with a limited effect; raiden's a decent, boostsble beatstick with a larger mill effect, that can be triggered on command, and makes summoning some monsters way easier. No comparison really.

Nevertheless I am pleased with these, they're really seeming pretty feasible.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:16 am

1) Converted mana cost, or CMC for short is the number of mana a card costs, right now, the Lightsworn cards I suggested have the following CMCs: Shire, Jain and Lumina have CMC of 1, Ehren, Lyla, Ryko, Aurkus, Jenis and Rinyan have a CMC of 2, Celestia has a CMC of 3, Garoth, Wulf and Gragonith have a CMC of 4 and JD has a CMC of 5. That means that yes, she can't summon Garoth or Wulf in addition to the others she can't normally summon. I could boost Luminas effect, but then she'd have to cost more and she'd be able to summon Celestia and Gragonith, or I could reduce Wulf in power so that he can cost only 2 but then he'd be a 2/2 at best which isn't nearly as good as a 3/3. And quite frankly, you wouldn't want to summon Wulf with her effect in this at all anyways. The once per turn is per card, so you could totally use a Lumina to summon a Lumina to summon a Lumina to summon a Lumina to summon something else, though that would cost quite a bit of mana. Yes the upkeep is at the beginning of your turn, but MtG also has summoning sickness. And since Luminas effect costs mana, you won't be able to use it on your first turn anyways. You could totally use it on your second turn though, and by then Lightcycle has already triggered once.

If you want the discard, and I totally understand why you would, I suggest Macabre Waltz, it costs two mana, returns two creatures and then makes you discard a card from your hand.

I guess Raidens effect could be made work like that but I'm not too sure...
Without that effect his problam is simple. If he costs one mana, he could be a 1/1 that can boost itself to be a 2/1. But Jain already does that and he kind of does it better. I guess Raiden could be a 1/2 and boost himself to a 2/2, that could be neat but I think I'd still prefer Jain. If he costs two, he could be a 2/2 that boosts itself to become a 3/2. Neat but a 3/1 with a good effect is better. He could be a 2/3 that becomes a 3/3 but even then I think I'd pick Ehren over him. I suppose I could reduce Ehren to a 2/1, but that'd make her much weaker... If I'd make Raiden cost more then two, he'd be too slow to be useful...

One problem with the offering effect is that you can't sacrifice more then one creature. And right now, Wulf looks like the best sacrifice, since he costs four mana but can enter the game for free.

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:53 am

Yeah. The main thing with Wulf is that his pros are: Great beatstick (which means whatever x/x would make him a good beastick in the game) and he's really easy to summon /despite/ that; i.e. Lumina or his effect. His cons are: He's really DIFFICULT so summon, i.e. regularly, without things like his effect or Lumina. If it wasn't for Wulf, Lumina's effect being based on cost would nearly work; but otherwise it just doesn't. Wulf really should have an inordinately high cost to the point of absurdity but then be summonable by other means...

for reference, a power guide: Things like Celestia having a lower cost than Wulf is just weird)

Gonna list, in order of strength, the viable LS monsters.

Ryko (200) (seriously you could make him 0/1 and it would be realistic, he's used only for a +1 name for JD, the effect, and the mill 3)
Minerva (600)
Lumina (1000)
Ehren (1600)
Lyla (1700)
Raiden (though if his effect WORKS he would be slightly stronger than Garoth) (1700 +200 sometimes?)
Jain (Stronger than Raiden slightly, also stronger than Garoth and boosted Raiden when his effect works) (1800 +300 during your turn only)
Garoth (1850) (ridiculously close to Jain; it's a total trade-off between the two really)
Wulf (2100)

----------------------- summon cut-off point, everything above is summonable by Lumina (or without sacrifices)

Celestia (2300)
Gragonith??? Not really viable but just for reference. It actually sits at 2000, but given it's cost it's a guaranteed (2300) and in reality is far greater, (3200) is common. But it's just a beatstick.
Michael (2600)
Judgment Dragon (3000)

Again, Raiden's a Utility. He's a decent beatstick - weaker than Jain or Garoth or (lol) Wulf, but not exactly death fodder like Lumina or Minerva. His cost for the attack boost is more important than the attack itself (Seriously, milling during the main is *such* a benefit and can only be done (ONCE!) by Celestia and Ryko only), his total mill is 4 instead of 2 or 3, (that's tied with Michael and Judgment) and he makes summoning easier. The attack boost is almost negligible in comparison. Hell, if you want, make it so that *both* milled cards have to be LS creatures for the +1. That means a quick, easy to play creature with a chance of a modest attack boost, strong automill and (some sort of summoning quirk. I really have no idea what this could be. Maybe people have done this before? *googles*).

BTW I know MTG has a 60 card deck, but since there's unlimited monster space on the field, and not capped at 5, and given their swaming tendencies/low costs... might some of the boosted Lightcycle numbers be kinda high? Lyla's got +1, Gragonith has +2, Judgment has +2... when you can have multiple Luminas, Raidens and JDs on the field, that number clocks up BIG TIME. I guess that comes with playtesting though. (It also increases the ease at which Judgment Dragon can be summoned - in Yugioh once you have 15 cards in the Grave you're almost certain to have it summonable. That's almost a single turn if you can chain a discarded Lumina and a single Lyla. Unless JD's attack strength is higher (which would probably break it) you're gonna deck out before you can do enough damage, since most of your other cards will be in the discard after nuking the field.

EDIT Lol someone already did Gorz

Gorz, The Emissary of Darkness 5BB
Creature - Demon

Whenever you would take combat damage from an opponent and you control no other creatures you may cast ~ without paying it's mana cost.
When ~ enters the battlefield, put an X/X White Angel creature token with flying onto the battlefield where X is equal to the damage dealt to you this turn by target creature an opponent controls.
5/4

EDIT EDIT: And Dark Armed Dragon, though they said it would be banned in Legacy

Dark Armed Dragon 5WB
Creature - Dragon
If you control exactly three black creatures* Dark Armed Dragon costs 5 less to cast.
WB Exile a Black creature from your graveyard: Destroy target permanent.
5/4

(*that should really be in the graveyard, not in the field - but that might really really break it?)

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:47 am

Ryko could totally be a 0/1 if you want, if you use him to attack you're doing it wrong.

Ehren could be reduced to a 2/1 but as I said, that'd weaken her significantly.

Wulf will either not be a great beat stick or he will be too expensive to be summonable via Lumina, there is no way around it if you want the Lightsworn to be fast.

If Celestia wasn't cheaper then Wulf, either Wulf would have to be weakened to the point of uselessness or Celestia would have to be so expensive that she'd be far too slow.

I think I have an idea for Raiden and Jain to make them fit better...

Garoth is currently stronger then the others but that's because of his higher cost, which is needed to balance his effect.

The Lightcycle numbers need to be high if you even want them to be even the slightest downside. It means you need to rush and/or find a way to prevent your own death via mill. Both of those are easily done in MtG. In the deck I posted, Jötun Grunt fills that role VERY nicely.

As for the two cards you posted, BAD might even work like that, havingexactly three black creatures can be difficult, especially in a deck that isn't mono black. Gortz however is crazy broken. Assuming your opponent plays a fast deck, you could have Gortz ready to attack on your second or maybe even first turn. That is insane and not acceptable in MtG.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:57 am

Okay, some slight edits and I added Raiden

Spoiler:

The thing with Wulf is that for two mana as a 2/2, he's neither a beatstick nor hard to summon normally.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:18 am

Honestly, I think those lightcycle costs are too low, allow me to explain.

In Yu-Gi-Oh!, at least last I checked, you have 40 cards, 4000 life points, creatures can only attack your opponents life points if there are no creatures on their field and you can attack creatures to destroy them

In MtG, you have 60 cards, 20 life points, creatures can ALWAYS attack life points and they can only destroy a creature if your opponent chooses to block

4 cards mill in Yu-Gi-Oh! is a tenth of your deck but only a fifteenth in MtG. Meanwhile, creatures can kill your opponent much quicker, because of the 20 life points and the fact that you can alway attack directly. There is also the fact that your deck needs lands in MtG. In MtG, you might have MAYBE about a third of your cards be Lightsworn. In Yu-Gi-Oh, easily half your cards could be Lightsworn if you want.

So yeah, if you want selfmill to be even a little downside, you'll need higher numbers

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:32 am

Those are good points about the milling - I wasn't sure of the differentials but the Lands are the clincher there. A milled land is a dead card for all intents and purposes, unless there's a White one that shares a similar effect to Wulf, which... actually sounds kinda cool? If non canon and maybe broken. Given that, I think you're right: mills should be high. And if MtG has some deck recovery cards, that's even better.

Celestia is slow. She's not used often, and when she *is*, it's only for her effect because she's too slow to do anything else really. Honestly. I used to like her for beatstick purposes and the neat effect, but... now she's a one-off. Seriously, just too slow. Sloooooow. If this means you can make her bigger/slower/a more deadly effect, then go for it. Her effect kicks ass in-game, you just don't get to use it often.

Gragonith is equally slow but achieves less than Celestia, hence nobody runs him.

Meanwhile Wulf is compatively fast... I wish I knew more about the game; he's an important part of Lumina swarm. There's got to be a way to fix it somehow... if he had a spread of x/0, would that go any way to fixing matters? Wulf is rarely used defensively. How about... Wulf costs completely different mana? Like, Red and Green? Which would make him very difficult to summon in an LS deck without Lumina or his own effect. That way you can have the cost be more or less anything you want, maybe. Or maybe Lumina's effect targets creatures with only a White total cost of a certain number.

Aaaand Raiden's still not doing much. The summoning thing (his Tuner status) make him a good card - his effects make him a good Tuner. How about... no that won't work... tribute Raiden; an LS creature you summon this turns costs (something) less? Or tribute Raiden AND another white monster and you can summon a creature for cost (combined cost) less. That kind of approximates a Synchro summon, but it should be tweaked.

Maybe you could do the same thing that you did for the mill; instead of saying "bluh bluh send x cards from the deck" and calling it Lightcycle, you could define a Yugioh-archetype specific effect. I dunno. Synchronicity/Tuning or something. If it turns out to be broken, make the creature unable to do anything that turn, or make the cost (combined cost + 2, e.g. Tuning 2, the lower the better) less so you still have to pay a little bit.

I think this requires playtesting really. But although my Yugioh PC simulator allows you to code new cards, they certainly don't allow you to code them MtG style, so I'm out of luck there! I think we've done very well so far.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:00 am

Getting bonus lands is WAY too good and almost exclusivly green. A land that does it by itself would be far too good.

I could certainly make Celestia slower, but then she'd be completly useless. She's already dangerously slow for a rush deck (in fact, she's the only card in the deck I posted that costs more then two mana that you actually want to cast) and outside of a rush deck, there aren't enough Lightsworn to support her effect. I guess I could make her work by turning her into another White/Black creature, that would allow her a stronger effect and the Black/White cards seem a bit slower right now.

As for Wulf, I think you don't understand how power and toughness work in MtG. Having 0 toughness wouldn't mean he's bad at defense, it would literally kill him as soon as he enters the game. There are creatures with 0 toughness, but they all have effects that boost their toughness, except for one, very gimmiky card and that gimmik would NOT fit well in your current theme. Also, changing his colour would only help a little, because if he costs two mana then he could still be easily played by someone using that colour. Think about it, if he was a 3/3 for, say, two red mana, red players would be far more likely to use him then Lightsworn players. To them, he's an easily summoned beatstick with a special ability in case your opponent tries to mill them, to you he's only usable through his effect which would be too much of a downside.

I have an idea that might work for Raiden but I am struggling with making it not too strong... It is also not very fitting for white...

EDIT: Ignore the Wulf part, I think I just had an idea that just MIGHT work

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:12 am

Hmmmmm I am indeed intrigued. But I think my tuning idea might work: If it's broken because you can summon too much, then you could only allow it to summon monsters that also have Tuning, i.e Synchros and Tuners. And the combined cost thing replicates how a Tuner like Plaguespreader or Minerva, while good, is not as good as Raiden. (though Plague in the graveyard is essentially a free -2 or whatever to a summoning cost. That's pretty cool.) As for Wulf... yeah. I hope you have ideas because I'm running out of them.

Can we just make him, like, not allowed to be summonable by paying mana? That solves most of the issues because then his cost (WW?) is redundant in comparison to is strength and toughness. It has the side effect that most MtG cards (I assume? Maybe?) will also not be able to revive him, but that's actually okay because he *should* be Lightsworn specific. We're trying to emulate a deck, not introduce cards to a format.

Edit: http://yugioh.wikia.com/wiki/Ally_of_Justice_Catastor is a sample synchro that is popular and I think could be translated easily enough. If attack would be blocked by a non-Black creature, destroy creature or something??? Except it works both ways (being attacked and attacking). Synchros could have really REALLY high costs that are mostly numeric and non-specific (Michael would need White, Catastor could use anything, just a lot of it) but high enough so that costs without a Tuner creature are just too slow to be worth using. If they're deadweight, they could be summonable from the deck in addition to the hand. Just an idea.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:17 am

Okay, so, my idea was to push Celestia into the 4 cmc and make Wulf a 3 cmc green/white 3/3. Paying 3 mana for a 3/3 isn't that good but you'd still get your 3/3 for free in Lightsworn and with Celestia gone, Lumina could be boosted to reanimate creatures with 3 cmc. Also, if I make Celestia Black/White, I might be able to let her Vindicate instead of destroying a creature.

The only problem is that giving Lumina 3 cmc revival opens her up to some Changeling shenanigans...

Ninja'd: No, removing his cost wouldn't stop anyone from reviving him but it would make him almost useless because there are way better things to reanimate. And if he'd be stronger then 3/3 it'd make Lumina too strong and we'd have to nerf her, which'd make her useless.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:20 am

No summoning from the deck! And yes,I think that could Work, let me try to think of something...

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:22 am

I'm liking the sound of this, it sounds more and more feasible (yet accurate) as we go on. A pointless cost (like what you said, 3 white green for 3/3 is a good way of doing things, yet with his own effect and Lumina it's also a free summon. And Celestia also sounds pretty accurate.

Do we get any way to destroy lands, or is that even a thing in MtG? Ryko, Lyla, Celestia, Michael and Judgment are all pretty banish-y/destruct-y. As I said earlier, Lightsworns are a toolbox and most strategies should be represented by at least one card (e.g. Jenis is both burn and heal, but is otherwise useless. Gragonith is just a good example beatdown card.)

I wouldn't worry about Changeling or any potentially broken combos too much, unless it's via a staple card - any random set of cards we introduce without a large playtesting team will probably end up being broken somehow.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 9:45 am

The thing is, the number of cmc 2 changelings is limited and most of them are either crappy or at least not useful for a Lightsworn deck. But there are lots of awesome 3 cmc changelings, some of which could be really great for Lightsworn, certainly better then what Lumina should be able to summon for two mana...

That said, take a look at these:

Spoiler:

Also, land destruction is a thing but usually red or black or sometimes green. Certainly not White.

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:17 am

Okay cool! NOW it looks like we're really getting somewhere.

Minor things: Swap the cost/effect on Celestia's effect. One of her quirks is that milling 4 isn't an effect, it's a cost FOR her effect. In yugioh terms it means it can't be countered unless her entire effect is negated (though the destruction effect can be stopped more easily. Cost still happens though.) Compare Raiden: His effect activates and includes milling 2. It CAN be blocked, because it's an effect and not a cost. That may not translate at all into MtG, but at the very least if someone tries to block her destruction ability, the cost should have already happened.

Is 1W on Raiden's effect 1 and a White, or one White? The former is more appropriate I think; removing just 1 is so small you'd be better off just keeping Raiden for his mill. Would it be possible to increase the effect of Tuner, so that you can sacrifice another creature card as well? For either an increased cost reduction, one that's equal to a sum of CRCs (or the other card's CRC + 1W) or just reduced by ONLY the other card's CRC. That last one is pretty restrictive but sounds interesting. Especially if it could tribute multiple creatures instead of just one... that would probably break any swarming deck though. You could play a cheap tuner, sacrifice all of them and play mostly anything.

Can Michael get bumped up to 4/3? He's far closer to Judgment in strength than he is to Wulf or Celestia. He's kind of the archetype leader actually (he rides Judgment Dragon). Do whatever you want to his cost since as long as it's feasible (read: Not necessarily straightforward, just simpler) with Tuner summons his cost is irrelevant.

ALSO OOH AFTER CONFIRMING RAIDEN DO MINERVA AND PLAGUESPREADER Very Happy

You don't have to worry about Minerva's dragon effect. I've never been able to use it (since it only activates if you've 7 different LS monsters in the graveyard, and only during a regular (and not Lumina) summon. Just a weaker Tuner with a smaller reduced cost with the "if this card is discarded from the hand or deck, Lightcycle 1" bit. And Plaguespreader is an even weaker Tuner (just cost-reduced by 1 maybe? With Minerva at 2 and Raiden at 1 + W) but the effect should be free in the graveyard (after doing the whole "put card in hand on top of library" thing.)

Is the color pie really so restrictive? I get that reds burn, blacks do offensive grave-y things, greens and whites can heal, blues do freaky spell things... but Lightsworns really are a toolbox; if you're afraid that they'd be used in other color decks just for the effect then you can limit them so the only activate under Lightsworn related conditions - e.g. Minerva /only/ looks for Judgment Dragon, not any dragon. Don't know where land destuction would come into it though; Lyla, Celestia and Ryko aren't too restrictive when it comes to how you use their effects.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:43 am

1W mean one colourless and one white. Hmm, I think I could make that work and yeah, looking JUST for JD can work, though effects like that are kind of uncommon in MtG.

And yes, kind of. It isn't so much that certain colours CAN'T do things, it's more that certain colours are better at certain things. For example, in blue, paying three mana to draw two cards is okay but nothing special. In white, that card would be incredibly awesome.

It's not so much about red doing damage and white healing, it's about the philosophy of the colours. White is about the greater good, the needs of the many over the needs of the few, the worth of life and health and about religion and believe. White for example doesn't have many big creatures. Some might have a lot of toughness but most have no more power then 3 or 4. You'll have trouble finding good white creatures with more then 5 power. There is also the pentagram of colours. White hates red and black and can do things against them specifically that it couldn't do normally. White can't normally destroy lands but it has a couple things that destroy mountains or swamps for example.

When it comes to toolboxes, you usually either need some artifacts, which usually cost a lot of mana, or you need black and pay some life.

But yeah, in MtG, noone is able to do everything and that is a VERY important concept. Also, I'll try to see what I can do about those cards.

by d_what Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:09 am

Yeah, Lightsworns almost completely fit the White colour then. With a few flavours, of course - they're sort of Heaven's Special Ops division. They live in an alternate reality/plane? (Realm of Light) in total peace but, like guardian angels, they transcend the barrier between realms when people who are pure in spirit pray for aid and are in mortal danger. They're a complete army; Raiden and Rinyan infiltrate enemy lines; Wulf/Garoth/Jain are their front lines and hit powerfully, behind them Lyla, Aurkus, Jenis and Lumina set up shop and start casting ferociously powerful spells at the enemy, or boost their own troops. Then the air corps are called in (Gragonith, Celestia, Shire), should the battle take to the skies, and if a real evil is ever encountered, and the battle must end decisively - the troops are withdrawn back to their own realm, and their energy allows Michael, leading Judgment Dragon to enter, and, well... Judgment happens. Everything really *does* get nuked. Nuking has never been a more appropriate term; nothing else in Yugioh can do this. And the thing about the Lightsworn archetype is... well, they're Heaven. They don't lose, ever, despite Yugioh being full of more Satans and Dark Dragons and Eldritch Horrors of Pure Corrupting Evil That Don't Die Ever than you can shake a stick at. If they'd ever lost a fight, they'd all be gone by now. Curiously, Lightsworns never interact with any other archetype in the card flavours; they're entirely set-off from the other archetypes. So the opportunity has never really arisen, but nevertheless they are an elite fighting force which fights with heaven's powers and have a tool for every job. Hence Celestia/Ryko/Jenis/Gragonith/Ehren/Aurkus/Minerva and their odd (and unique) effects. Also, they're really strong. Their attacks/summoning costs/effects are all well above average for the game, but that's where the milling comes in. In canon, they find it hard to stay in other realms and have to expend huge energy in order to stay there for any length of time - that's the milling. If they're there too long the deck runs out and you lose. That's the Judgment! The fact that they're offensively inclined gives some insight as to why they might be able to do Red/Black things, too. They're the good guys, but they're still an army that exists to fight, not for self-defense.

Lightsworns are feasibly able to do any job against almost any deck (with exceptions being cards that send graveyard cards out of play, but those are few and far between), which is why they have so many toolbox cards. It means they're never really in a poor matchup. The downside is with so many different cards doing so many different things (consider how Judgment wants several different lightsworns: Consistency is traded for power) it's hard to get what you want when you want it, even with full playsets. Which is where Lumina comes in, because with high milling there's a decent chance one copy of what you need exists in the graveyard. And that's why I'm not really against a few "odd" things showing up in the deck, like Dragon support or Land destruction, since it's true to Lightsworn form. They can do everything... just not consistently, and not for long.

To give an example of this... imagine an opposing deck was weak to Land destruction. If Celestia or Judgment could do that, well: Celestia could only do it once and she has a high cost. You'd never be able to do it more than once, or when you want it to happen. It's inconsistent. And if Judgment could do it, well you've just nuked your own lands too. Good luck recovering from that (and you'd hope if a deck had a weakness like that, it'd have some sort of backup plan for this situation).

Or if you had a defensive deck that was great at blocking: Sure, Ehren's great here. But in a good deck you'll only run 1, maybe 2 of her because her use is otherwise limited. So how often are you gonna be able to get her running when you want, without sacrificing efficiency?

In terms of competitiveness, pure lightsworn decks are rare, though 75% Lightsworn decks aren't. Their biggest problems, besides the aforementioned consistency and having their Graveyard locked down, are slow early starts (top meta decks swarm or get huuuuge monsters as early as T1 or T2 with Synchro/Xys summons; the only thing LS has is Michael) and anti-light cards (rare). The fix for this is known as a "Twilight" deck - you run Gardna and Plaguespreader anyway; throw in a Gorz and Tragoedia to discourage poor starts, Dark Armed and BLS because they're easy to summon in the deck with the added Dark cards, and Allure of Darkness for easy draws/discarding. So having to use the occasional Swamp isn't really all that odd - except maybe flavourwise.

by OverlordJ Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:14 pm

Alright, first of all, white gets lots of nukes but only for creatures. Though when it comes to that, White are the best. Your opponent has the better creatures? Wrath of God, all day, every day.

White is also full of religious fanatics and armies. No other colour has armies. Red might have lots of goblins but they are no army, black might have lots of zombies but they are no army and blue generally sort of sucks at creatures. The only ones who can do armies beside White might be green, if you want to call their elves an army.

White is not against attacking, especially not if the ones they attack are something they consider "evil". They just don't get strong creatures, at least not compared to reds dragons, blacks demons, blues leviathans or krakens or greens everything. But White doesn't care, they make up for it in numbers and the power of teamwork. The power of teamwork is fancy talk for giving all your creatures +1/+1 by the way.

As for the cards you described. In case you didn't notice, I readded that effect to Celestia a while ago, so, yeah, she can kill lands now. As for JD, you won't need to recover, most of your guys cost one or two mana and even without them you got a freaking 5/4 flyer. Your opponent is probably fucked even WITH lands. So yeah, no land destruction for JD.

As for the occasional swamp, that's totally fine, it's called splashing a colour, lots of people do it for exactly that reason.

With all that said, here is the latest revision:

Keywords:

Cards:

by Sponsored content