Re: Teambuilding and Advice

by Captain Wed Oct 23, 2013 3:03 pm

Captain wrote:Ok so let's kick this off.

In gen 5, I started to actually care about competitive teams, and gen 6 is no different. I have a semi friendly semi competitive tournament coming up soon with some peeps at my uni's Pokemon society, and I want to show up with a good team that is competitively viable, yet uses a reasonable amount of Kalos Pokemon, because those guys are awesome and I want to see how they fare competitively. So today, I started planning my team, and I believe I may have a reasonably good one now.

My thought process in choosing this team:

Movesets:
Peleus (Aegislash) [Adamant, Stance Change, King's Rock]: King's Shield, Shadow Sneak, Iron Head, Sacred Sword
Greninja [???, Protean, Flying Gem]: Waterfall/Surf, Ice Beam, Night Slash/Dark Pulse, Acrobatics
Madame (Mega Gardevoir) [Modest, Pixilate, Gardevoirite]: Psychic, Moonblast, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast/Calm Mind
Aran (Gliscor) [???, Poison Heal, Toxic Orb]: Earthquake, Acrobatics, Fling, Stone Edge
Shao (Mienshao) [Jolly, Regenerator, Leftovers]: Fake Out, Hi Jump Kick, Stone Edge, U-turn
Aurora (Aurorus) [Modest, Refrigerate, Weakness Policy]: Thunderbolt, Frost Breath, Reflect, Flash Cannon

If you want any explanations as to why I picked certain moves/items/abilities/whatever, then by all means go ahead! Suggestions for the ???s are specially welcome, as are EVs for all but Aegislahs (who I have already EV trained, he has 252 Attack, 128 Def 130 Sp.Def)

Crossposting because I didn't realise there was already a thread for this stuff....

by phantasmalDexterity Thu Oct 24, 2013 6:19 am

I can't really help with that. I usually choose my team mates on impulse.
But I don't think it's a bad combination. Also, Greninja can learn acrobatics? cool.

(I just didn't want to leave you hanging there.)

by Xaber Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:02 am

Aegislash: Looks good. Maybe replace Iron Head with Swords Dance, if you want a decent set-up sweeper? King's Rock isn't that useful either, since the only move that really benefits is Shadow Sneak. I'd say give it Mienshao's Leftovers or maybe a Lum Berry, given that King's Shield doesn't block status.
Greninja: Give it U-turn over Acrobatics (because that move is ridiculously good) and maybe Grass Knot over Dark Pulse for better coverage? Run 4Atk/252SAtk/252Spd with Mild or Hasty. Drop the Flying Gem for a Life Orb. Greninja's Special Attack is low enough that it needs a boosting item to hit hard enough, and it doesn't particularly mind the 10% recoil.
Gardevoir: Maybe give it Hyper Voice over Moonblast to let it hit through Substitutes. If you're running Calm Mind, a bulky boosting set may be workable, but otherwise you're probably best just going 252SAtk/252Spd to abuse its massive SAtk and passable Speed.
Gliscor: Perhaps put Roost somewhere on that set? Gliscor likes 50% recovery for walling high attack threats, even with Poison Heal. Put some EVs in attack, and the rest should be in bulk.
Mienshao: Not sure about Fake Out. It has a tendency to give free switches. EVs are basically 252Atk/252Spd. For the item, Leftovers isn't too necessary with Regenerator and Mienshao's pitiful bulk; I'd give it a Choice Scarf or a Life Orb.
Aurorus: This is one I'm not sure about. You said you wanted it partly to take on Water-types with BoltBeam, but it's weak to Water and lacks the bulk to switch in SE hits. Moveset is decent, although I'm not sure about Reflect; I suppose it's pretty workable. Maybe replace Weakness Policy (since you don't have the bulk to take many SE hits or the speed to sweep) with a Light Clay and consider adding Light Screen over Flash Cannon. Probably invest in special bulk and attack for a decent tank.

Overall, your team is pretty decent. Right now, you're lacking a revenge killer (besides Shadow Sneak Aegislash) and possibly a set-up sweeper, depending on whether you run Calm Mind on Gardevoir. Mienshao could fill either of those roles; Swords Dance Mienshao is a pretty decent sweeper, and Choice Scarf Mienshao is great at revenge killing and grabbing momentum with Choice Scarf. Bog-standard Life Orb Mienshao is also pretty good, though. Aegislash is also a very good Swords Dance sweeper, although the set you have right now is fine as it is.

(Also, a note on EV spreads: 252 HP gives you better mixed bulk than 128Def/128 SDef. Just something to remember for the other stuff)

by Captain Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:51 pm

Amended team:
Teambuilding and Advice - Page 2 681-b

Movesets:
Peleus (Aegislash) [Adamant, Stance Change, Leftovers]: King's Shield, Shadow Sneak, Iron Head, Sacred Sword
Greninja [Hasty, Protean, Assault Vest]: Surf, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, U-turn
Jade (Mega Gardevoir) [Modest, Pixilate, Gardevoirite]: Psychic, Moonblast, Shadow Ball, Calm Mind
Aran (Gliscor) [???, Poison Heal, Toxic Orb]: Earthquake, Acrobatics, Fling, Roost
Shao (Mienshao) [Jolly, Regenerator, Life Orb]: Fake Out, Hi Jump Kick, Stone Edge, U-turn
Marshmallow (Goodra) [Modest, Hydration, Rocky Helmet/Expert Belt/White Herb]: Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave/Focus Blast, Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse.

Aegislash now has the Lefties, but I'm keeping Iron Head because I need a reliable Fairy killer, especially with my newest addition.
Greninja gets U-turn and the stat and nature suggestions, but not the Life Orb, because if I'm using it on Mienshao then I can't also use it on Greninja. Seeing as all its moves are attacking, I'm using the Assault Vest. Its main threats are special attackers and Fighting types after all, and For Fighting types Gardevoir is the ideal switch-in.

Hyper Voice is a BW2 Move Tutor only move, plus has slightly less power, so I'm keeping Moonblast. Decided to Drop Focus Blast and go with Calm Mind once I realised that Focus Blast's purpose in the moveset was already covered by Moonblast.
Gliscor does not go for Roost, because I feel that Ice coverage is more important. He keeps Stoen Edge for this reason. I figure he's fast enough to outrun enough Ice Beamers that he doesn't need the recovery. Water types are more of a difficulty to face, but I can reasonably comfortably switch in Aegislash, Greninja or my most recent addition should I come up against one. Poison Heal will heal away anyway damage I take, and it gradually gets even easier, meaning all I need to do is survive a hit to be at full health again. EVs going in Speed and Attack, with some in bulk. Need to figure out exactly how much I'll need here though.
Mienshao is unchanged bar its item (now a Life Orb) because the set works well, and I know it works well. The Life Orb is on Mienshao because it has the ability to deal the damage it deals itself.

Finally, decided to go with Goodra for my last Pokemon. It's awesome, I'm glad I went for it. I'm kind a stuck on what I wnat it to do though. Focus Blast gives it more coverage, Poison Wave deals with Goodra's nasty Fairy weakness. Dragon Pulse is weaker but at least it doesn't decrease the Sp.Atk like Draco Meteor does. If I get Draco Meteor I'm going with a White Herb. If not then Rocky Helmet for added defensive abilities or expert belt for more damage (Expert belt is more for is I have Focus Blast).

by Xaber Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:27 am

Oh, you're using Item Clause? All right.
Changes look pretty good. If you're keeping Stone Edge on Gliscor, then you should probably make sure that's in the set. Goodra looks pretty good; I'd recommend Dragon Pulse, given you're probably running a tanky set, and Sludge Wave, since the only thing that Focus Blast really covers is Magnezone.

by Captain Fri Oct 25, 2013 11:49 am

I'm pretty sure most online battling has an auto item clause nowadays so I'm kinda forced to here? Idk, it just seems that way.

Amended team:
Teambuilding and Advice - Page 2 681-b

Movesets:
Peleus (Aegislash) [Adamant, Stance Change, Leftovers]: King's Shield, Shadow Sneak, Iron Head, Sacred Sword
Koga (Greninja) [Hasty, Protean, Assault Vest]: Surf, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, U-turn
Jade (Mega Gardevoir) [Modest, Pixilate, Gardevoirite]: Psychic, Moonblast, Shadow Ball, Calm Mind
Aran (Gliscor) [???, Poison Heal, Toxic Orb]: Earthquake, Acrobatics, Fling, Stone Edge
Shao (Mienshao) [Jolly, Regenerator, Life Orb]: Fake Out, Hi Jump Kick, Stone Edge, U-turn
Marshmallow (Goodra) [Modest, Hydration, Rocky Helmet]: Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Sludge Wave, Dragon Pulse.

by invisibleTerrarium Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:30 pm

Klefki @ Focus Sash
Prankster/252 Spe/252 SpA/4 Atk
Toxic
Spikes
Dazzling Gleam
Mirror Shot
This is really just to set up two layers of priority spikes, then die. Dazzling Gleam and Mirror Shot are for STAB if it manages to survive three turns.

Aegislash @ Life Orb
Stance Change/252 Atk/252 Def/4cSpD
Swords Dance
Shadow Sneak
Iron Head
Sacred Sword
Beastly physical sweeper, really fun to mess around with.

Barbaracle @ White Herb
Tough Claws/252 Atk/252 Def/4 SpD
Shell Smash
Razor Shell
Earthquake
Stone Edge
Still physical. Really I just like Barbaracle.

Zoroark @ Dark Gem
Illusion/252 SpA/252 Spd/4 Atk
Dark Pulse
Flamethrower
Grass Knot
Shadow Ball
Aha, a special sweeper! Intended to mimic Gourgeist.

Mega Gardevoir @ Gardevoirite
Pixilate/252 SpA/252 SpD/4 Spe
Moonblast
Psychic
Hyper Beam
Thunderbolt
STAB Hyper Beam coming off 252 EV's, Base 165 SpA. Hot damn. That's really a finisher for when Gardevoir's almost dead. Moonblast and Psychic will kill stuff too.

Large Size Gourgeist
Insomnia/252 Atk/252 HP/4 Def
Shadow Sneak
Trick-Or-Treat
Grass Knot/Seed Bomb (???)
Pain Split
Strategy here is to tack Ghost onto the end of their type chain, then smack 'em with SE Shadow Sneak. Pain Split for healing, Seed Bomb or Grass Knot for Grass STAB, can't decide.

Thoughts?

by d_what Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:46 pm

Captain: won't be able to judge accurately until I see some decent pivots/synergy, and those can be hard to spot. But minor notes:

For future reference, all gems bar normal are considered O.U.T until discovered. Not a single person has found any others.
Pixilate boosts converted moves apparently, so Hyper Voice is superior to Moon Blast... Should there ever be a Z move tutor.
And if you're using a Rocky Helmet on Goodra, why not emphasise the contact-hate and use Gooey, instead of Hydration? Rain is far, far less common now, and frankly the best Rain Sweeper (Kingdra is legal now!) is probably gonna kill your Goodra before it can make use of Hydration. Plus you don't run rain yourself.
You can get a gooey goomy from the safari zone, or someone else's, or failing that, ask nicely on the gts with fair (level 1) offers!
Fling is generally not good on Gliscor. It's too situational. Plus knock-off gets a neat boost this gen, for some cool dark type item shenanigans, or (if tutors/movepool allows) Stealth Rock/Defog. But honestly I wish smogon wouldn't rely on Defog as standard, very few people IN GAME are going to want to breed using DPPt's shitty mechanics, teach the bloody move, and forward it two gens. I hope it's a Z/RSEmake tutor move. AND stealth rock. Your team would appreciate SR BTW, especially Shadow Sneak Aegislash and Greninja!

IT: I'm gonna let Xaber (or WillPowered or someone) do the groundwork before I start. I'm not good at groundwork, I go on for days.
(BTW Small gourgeist's best niche is in speedy Leech Seed for large recovery. Bar Pain Split, the set you want seems best suited for Large. You lose speed but SS gives priority and you can take a hit really well. Pivot powers!)

Edit: Dream world abilities are incompatible with Defog Sad

and you can only feasibly use HGSS for breeding; Defog was a TM then but a HM in DPPT (weird) and HM'd pokemon can't be transferred.

by invisibleTerrarium Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:01 pm

Defensive stats are the same between all Gourgeist's forms. The only ones that change are Speed and Attack. That said, you're right, Large probably would be better.

by d_what Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:06 pm

Wait, really? I was sure the big one had improved bulk somehow.

HANG ON
"
Super Size: 85 / 100 / 122-123 / 58 / 75 / 54 (SpD and Speed not confirmed)

Small Size: 55 / 85 / 122 / 58 / 75 / 99 (via Serebii, not confirmed on Smogon)
"

Those are rough stats but they're still pretty clear-cut. HP! That's important. Especially when considering Leech Seed and Pain Split.

by invisibleTerrarium Wed Oct 30, 2013 5:15 pm

Ah, missed the HP. Yeah with that added i don't really see much reason to use Small Size.

by OverlordJ Wed Oct 30, 2013 8:36 pm

Indeed, the smaller ones are faster but the bigger ones have higher HP. And ones they evolve they have higher HP as well as Higher attack.

by Captain Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:35 pm

I've already trained the Goodra now, it's wayyyyy too late to change it. Hydration won't do anything for it but at least its more useful than Sap Sipper for the Moveset I'm using.

I've got Fling literally just to get rid of the Toxic Orb on Gliscor so that Acrobatics can work. I want both Poison Heal and Acrobatics and this is pretty much the best way to achieve that. Stealth Rock is also wayyyy to late, I've already trained (and even EV trained) my Gliscor, and I'm pretty sure there's no TM for Stealth Rock this gen. If we get it as a Move Tutor move though, I may consider it for Stone Edge?

by invisibleTerrarium Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:01 pm

Teambuilding and Advice - Page 2 Image12

Uh
What does this mean
They're tm moves, not breeding ones

by OverlordJ Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:25 pm

What even is that?

by invisibleTerrarium Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:26 pm

Pokemon showdown. Random pokemon battle simulator. Build your team and battle with random people online.

by OverlordJ Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:32 pm

Huh, I might have to give that thing a look some day

by Xaber Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:20 am

Just some quitc optimisation:

Klefki:
- Foul play is probably better than Mirror Shot/Dazzling Gleam
- You probably want to invest in Defense, since most multi-hit/priority moves are physical

Aegislash:
- You might want to give it King's Shield to abuse its bulk, since Shadow Sneak can't KO a lot of things
- Leftovers are probably a better choice instead of Life Orb
- Not too sure about those evs; moving the 252 Def to HP would give more overall bulk

Zoroark:
- Life Orb is better than Dark Gem
- For the disallowed thing, try switching Dark Pulse with Night Daze and see if that works
- Why 4 Atk evs?

Gardevoir:
- Hyper Beam is absurdly powerful, but is also gives setup opportunities to your opponent; it may not be the best choice

Gourgeist:
- Seed Bomb is just stronger with that EV spread.

by invisibleTerrarium Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:15 pm

While I was actually building Klefki on Showdown, I replaced Dazzling Gleam with Foul Play. I wasn't aware he learned that. I'm not using Klefki as an attacker, he's really just supposed to set up spikes. If he succeeds in that and survives for a few more turns, Toxic, then repeated foul play/mirror shot if he somehow survives that long.

I've moved Aegislash's EVs to HP on your suggestion. That said, I'm keeping all his moves and item though.

Zoroark's got alright attack, I figured I'd just make Grass Knot a little stronger. Changed his item. It suddenly stopped disallowing me after like three minutes.

Gardevior's Hyper Beam I'm mostly using as a flashy finisher when he's out, so yeah, it'd probably be good to switch that. Any suggestions?

I did ultimately pick Seed Bomb for him while I was

by d_what Thu Oct 31, 2013 5:40 pm

Oh my god the suspense is so palpable you can taste it!

Edit: P.S hyper voice when available. 117 base power (pre-STAB), 100 accuracy AND hits through Substitutes! Awesome.

by invisibleTerrarium Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:20 am

Fucking christ, barbaracle. Dude just tanked an (unboosted) sacred sword off an Aegislash after missing with Stone Edge. Next turn king's shield, i used razor shell and missed again (i think it was holdng lax incense). Next turn: barbaracle moves first and oneshots the damn thing with earthquake while it's still in defense mode.

I love barbaracle so much, he's just the best pokemon.

by Captain Sat Nov 02, 2013 5:40 pm

Question: Would it be better to have Shadow Sneak on Greninja rather than Dark Pulse?

by invisibleTerrarium Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:00 pm

Hey, are pokemon showdown's logon servers only down for me, or for everyone?

Captain I'd say stick with Dark Pulse, you'll probably be outspeeding most things anyway.

by Captain Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:11 pm

I suppose, but with Protean STAB is unimportant anyway (because everything is STAB), and the priority could win me battles. Also a lot of the main Psychic types I'll be taking out with SS/DP have a much worse Defense than Special Defense anyway. And even then there's stuff like Gallade, Mega Mewtwo X, (Mega) Gardevoir and others that would be SE affected by Shadow Sneak but not Dark Pulse. Decisions, Decisions...

by d_what Sat Nov 02, 2013 6:20 pm

Nah. The difference in power is just too significant (assuming you went with +Sp.Atk EVs). A physical set makes use of priority (water shuriken) but it loses out on low base power moves and not enough variety. Greninja needs decently powered moves because it's not all that strong.

Plus you really shouldn't have to worry about either Gallade or Mega Mewtwo. Or even regular Mewtwo...

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