General Chat: The Smashening

To be fair, I don't care too much about "getting both megas" either. I mean, what's the point of getting a pokemon that I am never ever going to use? I don't even like using Charizards Megas in general but I am still using the one I have because what else am I gonna do with it now? The only reason to get the other one would be to get a better mixed set, I guess? I guess I could run Earthquake instead of Solar Beam, or something, but honestly, I am a bit disapointed with my Charizard this gen...

OverlordJ wrote:I mean, what's the point of getting a pokemon that I am never ever going to use?

Uhhh OJ? I think that's like... 95% of all Pokemon. Ever used Dunsparce or Snubbull? I haven't and I catch the hell outta those. Also true for legends. I mean... Free exclusive megastone and starter. What does it take for a 10 year old to not want that? I even wrote down the instructions and gave it to them!

What's wrong with your charizard :0
Also now that I'm done with my Haxorus team (good game guys, you did really well i r proud) I'm gonna make a new one. I'm gonna continue the theme of "building team around Pokemon that is a little bit interesting but not completely viable": this time it's Tangrowth. But bulky Pokemon are harder to build around if you're using a self-imposed item clause D: MegaManectric/Unaware Cleric Clefable/Chansey/Slowbro/Gyarados/Arcanine/HeatranLolIWish are all up for consideration at the moment. I wanted to use my Tornadus... But it's gotta use Assault Vest and Tangrowth is also using it, so that's out.

No, see, I don't really like Megas too much. And while there are mons I probably won't ever use, I'll definitely not use most Megas, because I just really don't like them. And I don't even need Megas for my dex, so I care about a missing mega less then about a missing Dunsparce. And many people who only start pokemon only care about mons they ARE going to use, so I am actually LESS surprised that the young ones didn't want it then that someone my age doesn't care. As for my Charizard, I am just not really happy with it I guess... I rarely ever use it and when I do it either one hits the enemy or it just sort of... sucks and dies. I had one back in Gen one (on Yellow) and while he back then had worse moves then the one now does, he just felt much more useful... I don't know, I mostly use him for flying around and to Rock Slide in battles to get me stones. On Yellow, he incinerated my enemies and now he just sort of sucks... Maybe I expected too much from him? Or maybe the rest of my team is just so good that he pales in comparison

Or maybe Pokemon Yellow was frickin YEARS ago and since then the amount of mechanics changes and Pokemon introduced with better stats/abilities/etc has increased dramatically. Idk why people don't realise this. Of course Gen 1 pokes suck now compared to then. The BSTs have been creeping up Gen by Gen (not sure about gen 2 but definitely since then), and it was only this gen that Gamefreak decided to buff the Pokemon from previous gens. And even then, the changes they made were mostly insignificant.

So yeah, it's really no surprise that your Charizard was better in Yellow.

Tho Mega Chari Y is beastly. He looks cool (maybe even cooler than Mega Chari X, I'm not a fan of the flame moustache I'm sorry. Also the shoulders are weird), and his ability and stats help him out hugely. Fire Blast under drought is super nasty, and a free Solarbeam on any water Poke that shows its face is also nice. I personally prefer Physical sweepers, so I'd still be going Mega Chari X, but Mega Chari Y is also cool and I wanna use him on a team sometime, now that I have the item.

I really don't understand the dislike for Megas though, unless if it's a nostalgia tinted goggles situation, in which case I'm not interested in the argument anyway. Nostalgia Tinted Goggle wearing Genwunners are not Pokemon fans imo. They are Pokemon RBY fans. Not true fans. That's just my opinion tho.

Well, that sounds kind of rude. That said, I dislike Megas for a couple of reasons but nostalgia is a big one. The other ones include weird designs and the fact that I feel as if I HAVE to use a Mega now. I mean, that's the reason why I am using Mega Charizard, there is literally no reason for me NOT to use it, which makes me feel as if the non-mega versions are even less useful now. And I really liked some of those and now I feel as if I have to make excuses why I don't want to use the Mega versions of them. So I am using Mega Charizard, because I have no better item for him and using him gives me an excuse to use non-mega Guardevoir, Gengar and/or Alakazam.

Normal Gengar is in some ways better than Mega and Alakazam is just as good as its mega.

Mega =/= Better Version.

In some it is.

I still disagree that the designs are weird.

Well that is up to personal taste I suppose. Like, Mega Charizard has those stupid wings on the arms? Alakazam looks funny but in a goofy kind of way, less respectable then regular. Guardevoir looks okay but too poofy. Gengar is alright, though Haunter is still my favourite from its design in that family.
...
Maybe I should write a list tomorrow

I actually agree with OJ about megas. They just seemed kind of an unnecessary gimmick (and made Alakazam ridiculous I don't need more of my friends bashing my favorite Pokemon come on), and just gives me the feeling that GameFreak is going "bigger is better."

Or maybe I'm just a lazy bum and can't be bothered to collect all those megastones, let's be honest.

Mega manectric looks really stupid but i like all the other designs

And i even like how mega manectric plays even if it is a literal lightning bolt with legs

Actually yeah, Mega manectric was a design error. Normal Manectric isn't much better anyway though, so -shrug-

All the others revealed so far look cool. Octi r u kidding Megazam is super cool, how can you not love a solid beard? Plus trace is a super useful ability. I once traced Poison Heal off a Gliscor after he used Toxic on me. That was a good day :3

Basically, I know it sounds rude and dickish but w/e I don't care. I've said this before and will say it again. If you don't like the new things they're doing in Pokemon, leave the series or just play the old games. Just don't come and bitch about what they're doing.

Captain wrote:Basically, I know it sounds rude and dickish but w/e I don't care. I've said this before and will say it again. If you don't like the new things they're doing in Pokemon, leave the series or just play the old games. Just don't come and bitch about what they're doing.

I strongly disagree with that opinion. If you like something and it changes for the worse, you will of course be upset and you will probably hope that they will fix whatever made you upset. There are many times where people don't like all titles of a series, so if the most current one is not to your liking, that doesn't mean that you'll never like another title of the series.

In my opinion, if you can't accept the fact that NOTHING is flawless (Insert "I am a Mage of Void and "Nothing" is flawless" joke here) and can't take critic of your favourite thing, then you are a "worse" fan then the ones who complain a lot.

When something you are a fan of makes a stupid descision, the right reaction is not to say "Welp, I'll never enjoy one of these again", the right reaction is to hope that they fix their errors. And there is nothing wrong with two fans of the same work politely arguing about which things are good and bad in the most recent version.

I mean, that's not just a Pokemon thing. I'm not gonna quit MtG, just because I think the most recent version of the Legendary rule is far less flavourful then the last one. I get that they need to fix the rule to make Legends more playable and easy for newer players but come on, now both people can have the same guy working for them but mine still commits suicide when I Clone him? How's that making sense for flavour?
Heck, I still haven't decided if I love or loathe how they changed how Magic works in Skyrim compared to Morrowind. I mean, I probably love some of its aspects and loathe others, I guess...

As for Megas:

Spoiler:

I'm actually really conflicted--I loved it when they gave DW Magic Guard to Alakazam, but now it has a mega. So what do I do? Use one of my favorite abilities on my favorite Pokemon, or have a mega of my favorite Pokemon?

Decisions are hard, and also it is taking forever to breed five IVs on one of the Pokes I want to use for our tourney thing.

I got a pretty great 4 IV Abra via wondertrade, maybe I could breed something useful for you.

Oh sorry, I should have been more clear--I'm breeding Larvesta right now, actually. Thanks for the offer though!

Ah alright then, good luck with it

Yeah OJ your disliking of the megas are mostly just nitpicking, sorry. It's more that you dislike the concept than disliking the MegaEvos themselves tbh. Also, lol "Changing for the worse". Megas are a good change.

So yeah. And even if something does change and I don't like it, do I want them to change it back? Fuck no! It's my own stupid inability to accept change that's to blame. I deal with it, I move past that, and I find I enjoy it again. Or, if I really can't stand it, I stop playing/watching/reading. It's really that simple.

The point is this: Gamefreak have shown absolutely ZERO signs of stopping with megas. Hell, they're adding more to ORAS! So either you accept that megas are cool, or you don't like them and never use them. Or stop playing Pokemon. The same applies to any change Gamefreak makes that is a big change, such as the Physical/Special split, the introduction of abilities, or anything really. Small changes, like Pokemon following, will leave the series and be a one off. But big changes endure, especially changes to the metagame and battling. So yeah.

This may all be bc I'm a breath player. Change is kinda a thing we readily accept and welcome. Sorry for being a dick, I just feel strongly about people who can't accept the new and cling to the old.

I have nothing HUGELY pertinent to add except the following points (and a small treatise on power creep, reading optional)

1) I'm fundamentally against progressive powercreep, so mega evolving certain Pokemon (Scizor, Alakazam) does bother me, but not on a design front (MScizor is a boss)

Spoiler:

 

2) The existence of Mega Evolution gives a nice bye to all the problems involved in actually evolving something - typically they're a perfect halfway point between an actual evolution and a forme change, so Pokemon who want to maintain the stylistic niche they have already (Mawile, Absol - evolutions would ruin their chic really) but still need a boost appreciate them, as do Pokemon who really really need a boost and can't evolve (Charizard, Ampharos). 

3) if someone can't take the good with the bad logically and objectively then if they're not a "true" fan (kinda aware of the "no true scotsman" fallacy here) then they're not exactly a great fan. Or even a fan? Certainly I would agree that those who outright claim gen 1 is best (taking into account that the overwhelming majority of those people have not played even 50% of the games) are not true fans. They are substituting Nostalgia for actual experience and objectivity. That said, I have no problem with people who say that gen 1 is their favourite, or that it's the best PROVIDING they add the rider that that's because of nostalgia or inexperience. Gen 1 cannot claim to be the best gen. It was glitchy* and basic* and linear* and had limited designs* and serious implementation flaws. It's only saving grace is the fact it was the first game - and nobody argues the original LoZ is the best now, do they? *all of these things are down to hardware/start issues, that is understood. But they still count! A buggy game is still a subpar game and GF did want more detailed/developed/complex Pokemon, they just couldn't implement them at the time.

4) OJ WHAT DO YOU MEAN POOFY SHE'S WEARING A BALLGOWN HOW ELSE IS SHE SUPPOSED TO LOOK? D:

Am I the only person who actually thinks Mega Manectric is kinda cool because it's literally a Raiju, a living lightning beast
and also likes Mewtwo Y just because it looks sleeker and smaller and that makes me appreciate it more in terms of actually liking it
as well as liking Megazard Y better than X since HELL YEAH FIRE POWER and it looks super aerodynamic instead of just kinda awkward like Megazard X does plus I don't really give a shit about the dragon typing

...yes?
okay then

Also Jay, I understand that you dislike Megas (And I disagree with them being a change for the worse but that's another topic)... But like, just what do you want them to do to fix that then?
And no, removing megas are not an option. ORAS kinda proves they're here to stay, yeah.

I think Mega Manectric looks weird as hell.

But so did the original, except now it's "has mane shaped like lightning bolt" instead of "has electrically charged hair" so that's okay.
And I like the Charizard best in balance. Y represents the qualities people see in the original; the raw brute power over everything; also it embodies the Flying aspect of charizard that so many "waaah should be Fire/Dragon" people like to forget, what with (as Spark said) the aerodynamics, the added arm wings (which I like) and the HUUUUUUGE wingspan. Then X provides the rest; the outright badassery, the black in its genetics, the raw heat and the dragon lineage, while staying true to form. One by itself wouldn't be half as cool - Blasty and 'Saur don't need a second like Charizard does.

And I do prefer Mewtwo Y over X. Always have. X is redundant design wise; does nothing that the original didn't except make it taller. Y looks like a standalone Pokemon in the Mew family - and since Mewtwo is gender neutral, who cares if it looks more female? It certainly drips with psychic energies, that's for sure.
I can guarantee if they'd swapped the order of the Mewtwo reveals people would HATE, seriously HATE, Mewtwo X for taking and ruining the original. Whereas Y would be... "oh. Well at least it's different." Though really like Charizard Mewtwo really needs either both or neither.

power creep is bad, especially active power creep. you have to print the shitty blocks along with the great blocks otherwise mtg would turn into yugioh.

*backs up and stays away from furious debate*

all i'm saying is that theros block is terribad.

Oh boy, okay, this is gonna get long…

Lets start at the beginning:

Captain wrote:Yeah OJ your disliking of the megas are mostly just nitpicking, sorry. It's more that you dislike the concept than disliking the MegaEvos themselves tbh. Also, lol "Changing for the worse". Megas are a good change.

Well yeah, no shit Sherlock, I DID say I disliked the concept, didn’t I? And if you’re claiming they are a change for the better, do you have anything to back that up?

So yeah. And even if something does change and I don't like it, do I want them to change it back? Fuck no! It's my own stupid inability to accept change that's to blame. I deal with it, I move past that, and I find I enjoy it again. Or, if I really can't stand it, I stop playing/watching/reading. It's really that simple.

The world is not black and white. There are things that I can stand that I still dislike, there are things that I am willing to endure in order to enjoy the things I like. And your response to changes you dislike is insane, not all changes are for the better and one needs to be able to tell a change apart from a mistake.

The point is this: Gamefreak have shown absolutely ZERO signs of stopping with megas. Hell, they're adding more to ORAS! So either you accept that megas are cool, or you don't like them and never use them. Or stop playing Pokemon. The same applies to any change Gamefreak makes that is a big change, such as the Physical/Special split, the introduction of abilities, or anything really. Small changes, like Pokemon following, will leave the series and be a one off. But big changes endure, especially changes to the metagame and battling. So yeah.

Yeah, of course they aren’t going to stop, it’s too late for that. The ship left the harbor, the train is of the rails and the car drove of the cliff. There is no turning back. But not being able to turn back doesn’t mean that charging ahead is the best course of action. If one made a mistake that can’t be undone, damage control is still the best thing to do. And no, there are more options then liking Megas, not using Megas or quitting Pokemon. I like playing to the best of my abilities and NOT using a Mega would be throwing away an option to win. It is just an option that I despise. So I will continue thinking that Megas suck, I will continue using them anyways, because I don’t want to cripple myself and I will continue playing Pokemon.

This may all be bc I'm a breath player. Change is kinda a thing we readily accept and welcome. Sorry for being a dick, I just feel strongly about people who can't accept the new and cling to the old.

And I am a blue player, I welcome change, if I can control it and if I can learn out of mistakes of the past. Making mistakes HAS to happen but one has to learn from them.

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d_what wrote:I have nothing HUGELY pertinent to add except the following points (and a small treatise on power creep, reading optional)

1) I'm fundamentally against progressive powercreep, so mega evolving certain Pokemon (Scizor, Alakazam) does bother me, but not on a design front (MScizor is a boss)

Spoiler:

I agree about your points about powercreep. Progressive Powercreep basically can’t be avoided but one needs to keep an eye on it and needs to be aware of it. A lot of the mons didn’t need to get a better version of themself.

2) The existence of Mega Evolution gives a nice bye to all the problems involved in actually evolving something - typically they're a perfect halfway point between an actual evolution and a forme change, so Pokemon who want to maintain the stylistic niche they have already (Mawile, Absol - evolutions would ruin their chic really) but still need a boost appreciate them, as do Pokemon who really really need a boost and can't evolve (Charizard, Ampharos).

From what I was able to hear, no one is using Mawile without Mega. And while giving evolutions to existing mons can cause trouble (because Evolite and stuff), giving a Mega to one basically makes sure that they will never again be able to get an evolution. For those that already evolved twice, that’s fine but it is a bit unfortunate for Mawhile, Sableye and the likes.

3) if someone can't take the good with the bad logically and objectively then if they're not a "true" fan (kinda aware of the "no true scotsman" fallacy here) then they're not exactly a great fan. Or even a fan? Certainly I would agree that those who outright claim gen 1 is best (taking into account that the overwhelming majority of those people have not played even 50% of the games) are not true fans. They are substituting Nostalgia for actual experience and objectivity. That said, I have no problem with people who say that gen 1 is their favourite, or that it's the best PROVIDING they add the rider that that's because of nostalgia or inexperience. Gen 1 cannot claim to be the best gen. It was glitchy* and basic* and linear* and had limited designs* and serious implementation flaws. It's only saving grace is the fact it was the first game - and nobody argues the original LoZ is the best now, do they? *all of these things are down to hardware/start issues, that is understood. But they still count! A buggy game is still a subpar game and GF did want more detailed/developed/complex Pokemon, they just couldn't implement them at the time.

Yeah, no, gen one wasn’t the “best” game. Hard to say which one was the best, really, I sort of tend towards gen 2 or 3. I haven’t experienced gen 4 all that much, since I never actually played that gen, but I think I preferred gen 3 to gen 5 and 6. Crystal might have been my favourite game, though I fully admit that nostalgia plays of course a huge deal in my enjoyment.

4) OJ WHAT DO YOU MEAN POOFY SHE'S WEARING A BALLGOWN HOW ELSE IS SHE SUPPOSED TO LOOK? D:

BUT THAT’S THE POINT, I LIKE GUARDEVOIRS LONG FLOWING DRESS MUCH MORE THEN MEGAGUARDEVOIRS POOFY BALLGOWN! ALSO, WHY ARE WE SHOUTING?

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Spark Eletran wrote:Am I the only person who actually thinks Mega Manectric is kinda cool because it's literally a Raiju, a living lightning beast
and also likes Mewtwo Y just because it looks sleeker and smaller and that makes me appreciate it more in terms of actually liking it
as well as liking Megazard Y better than X since HELL YEAH FIRE POWER and it looks super aerodynamic instead of just kinda awkward like Megazard X does plus I don't really give a shit about the dragon typing

...yes?
okay then

Mewtwo Y looks more like Mew and less like Mewtwo in my opinion, it looks soft (which is why many say it looks feminine) and Mewtwo looked like a badass mutant monster. X looks closer to how regular looks, which I why I prefer it in looks. Y plays more similar, which is why I prefer to play it. I still hate them both, because Mewtwo is one of the last Pokemons that’d ever need an upgrade, or at least it should be. I mean come on, it was engineered for Perfection and now it becomes better then that?

Also Jay, I understand that you dislike Megas (And I disagree with them being a change for the worse but that's another topic)... But like, just what do you want them to do to fix that then?
And no, removing megas are not an option. ORAS kinda proves they're here to stay, yeah.

Yeah, I get that they are here to stay, nothing that can be done to fix that mistake, I just hope they don’t continue doing it forever. I kind of hope that Megas are a gen 6 thing and we don’t really get more in later gens anymore. Who knows, if Megas turnout badly enough, maybe they’ll restrict access to the Megastones in future gens, after all, it looks like they won’t do item trading between gens, so in gen 7, there’ll only be access to the megas whos megastones are included in gen seven. Maybe they could get rid of some Megas that way.
But quite frankly, I doubt that’s going to happen, so my only realistic hope is that they at least create more Megas that are interesting and not stricktly better then the regular ones. At least MegaSableye seems to hint at that, perhaps playing somewhat similar to MegaVenusaur, being fast in the setup, then bulking up once that’s completed.

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d_what wrote:I think Mega Manectric looks weird as hell.

But so did the original, except now it's "has mane shaped like lightning bolt" instead of "has electrically charged hair" so that's okay.
And I like the Charizard best in balance. Y represents the qualities people see in the original; the raw brute power over everything; also it embodies the Flying aspect of charizard that so many "waaah should be Fire/Dragon" people like to forget, what with (as Spark said) the aerodynamics, the added arm wings (which I like) and the HUUUUUUGE wingspan. Then X provides the rest; the outright badassery, the black in its genetics, the raw heat and the dragon lineage, while staying true to form. One by itself wouldn't be half as cool - Blasty and 'Saur don't need a second like Charizard does.

And I do prefer Mewtwo Y over X. Always have. X is redundant design wise; does nothing that the original didn't except make it taller. Y looks like a standalone Pokemon in the Mew family - and since Mewtwo is gender neutral, who cares if it looks more female? It certainly drips with psychic energies, that's for sure.
I can guarantee if they'd swapped the order of the Mewtwo reveals people would HATE, seriously HATE, Mewtwo X for taking and ruining the original. Whereas Y would be... "oh. Well at least it's different." Though really like Charizard Mewtwo really needs either both or neither.

Eh, yeah, regular Manectric looked a bit weird, too, but I finally figured out what it reminds me of. It looks like a freaking thorn bug. And that’s just weird.
I like your reasoning behind the Charizards. I don’t like them but your reasoning seems logical to me. That said, I feel like Charizard had the best of both worlds, Y is too skinny and X is sort of weird, being a dragon. Also, it should totally stand on the ground in battles that aren’t sky battles. In fact, could some of the “flying” guys perhaps get different animations depending on whether they are in a sky battle or a regular one? Some of the flying animations just looks weird to me…
As for Mewtwo, see, my problem is that Y looks less badass, while being supposed to be an upgrade. X at least doesn’t look worse. They both suck though. And I wouldn’t say Y looks female, more like, it looks feminine. It is smaller and softer and less threatening. Mewtwo Y feels like an awesome, slightly scary, monster man turned into some kind of sparkly, bishie prettyboy but we’re supposed to believe that they became even MORE awesome and tough. Except I like my Mewtwos to be Special Sweepy and that means I need to come up with reasons why I wouldn’t use the better MegaMewtwo Y in that case. If it was only MegaMewtwo X, I could just say that I don’t want the physical boost and Fighting Type. But yeah, the best would be if Mewtwo just wouldn’t have a Mega.

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Hanky Panky wrote:power creep is bad, especially active power creep. you have to print the shitty blocks along with the great blocks otherwise mtg would turn into yugioh.

Yeah, not everything can always be stronger then everything that came before it.

Hanky Panky wrote:all i'm saying is that theros block is terribad.

Wait, what do you have against Theros, it was so flavourful?

it was flavorful, sure, but the block keywords, other than bestow and strive (which is just another word for kicker costs, by the way), were shit. heroic is garbage. it's draft-playable-only limited slag. how many standard constructed decks have you seen that use heroic? other than B/G constellation, who uses constellation? inspired is awful, because you're not always going to be able to reliably tap something down without attacking. tribute is bad because you're never going to get the best option; you'll always get the option that benefits target opponent the most.

don't get me wrong, i love greek mythology. and theros was fun for the flavor. but BNG itself, after the prerelease, just felt like i was vomiting in my mouth. what a shit-tastic set.

if you didn't already know, i started playing magic at the beginning of invasion block. i played through the midpoint of kamigawa (through odyssey, onslaught, and mirrodin blocks -- all pretty awesome blocks), then quit for about 8 years. came back right after m14 was released. i'm not used to sets on par with homelands and mercadian masques. plus, i play almost exclusively EDH, which means i evaluate cards in a different manner. mana cost isn't so much of a constraint. if the effect is powerful enough or versatile, i'm likely to run it. if it's a downside for me as well as everyone else, i'm likely to run it. case in point: in my Oloro deck, i run breathstealer's crypt. 2UB enchantment: whenever a player draws a card, he or she reveals the card drawn. if it's a creature, that player discards that card unless he or she pays 3 life. that sounds oppressive as fuck, right? and bad for me, too. well, it's nowhere near as bad when you start with 40 life and are playing it in a lifegain deck that intends to bleed people dry. for me, theros was full of just.... bad cards. i have my erebos and purphoros and a few of the legendary artifacts, but there really wasn't anything that screamed "build around me" in the set. not that i saw, anyway. for EDH, at least. white weenie tokens is a totally viable thing in standard right now with brimaz, launch the fleets, and that m15 soul thing.

Wait hey all I'm getting is that everyone thinks Manectric looks weird and I must object! Manectric was one of my best buds in RSE :I

I'd personally really like to have a battle mode without megas (something like an OU without megas), partly because it takes the mega-guessing out of competitive battling and because, as mentioned, I'm too dang lazy to collect things at 8-9pm.

And as for battling in a mega-riddled playing field without a mega, it goes well sometimes but inevitably there are matches when I get crushed by a mega and I feel bad about my life. Those times make part of me want to jump onto the bandwagon, but another part of me yearns for a 6th gen meta without them.