General Chat: The Smashening

[OverlordJ]

Maybe Ice should resist Electric attacks?

[Hanky Panky]

they gave me the opportunity to skip second grade and i said fuck no those third graders are asshats

[Dregadude]

Ice se on Water, Electric nve on Ice, Poison se on Water are all good ideas. Fairy se on Ghost would have solved a lot of Ghost's op-ness imo.

Spoiler:

[OverlordJ]

I feel that would make fairy attacks too strong. Super effective against Dark, Fighting, Dragon AND Ghost? That just seems like too much to me.

[invisibleTerrarium]

How about steel resists everything, ghost is immune to everything, and psychic is strong against everything? That sounds fair, right?

[d_what]

Drega, the problem with Ghost isn't its resistances, it's the fact that it's barely resisted. Ghost isn't a brilliant defensive type but it's a terribly powerful offensive one; in this regard, Fairy > Ghost wouldn't achieve much. Especially not considering the lead ghosts are Steel/Ghost and Poison/Ghost! In addition, Fairy is, on balance, the best typing in the game. Also it's pretty unlikely for an established resistance to turn all the way into a weakness.

And ice > electric makes less sense canonically than, uhhhh, something that doesn't make sense.


In addition, Charizard X being weak to Earthquake is the best thing since toast. It'd be in the Uber tier by now without it - Char X is suspect as it is and BARELY gets a pass. It's only its weaknesses to Rock and Ground that keep it checked. Aegislash is in the same boat; it is widely considered THE BEST Pokemon in the standard competitive game (beating out the Deoxys formes, Char X, and Landorus/Thundurus wow) yet nobody wants it suspect because it's weaknesses, particularly Earthquake, are common and it provides for a healthy meta. Losing out that weakness would not be a happy result for Aegislash or the would-be Ground user. In addition, that kind of logic would remove Dodrio and any grounded flying type's resistance to Ground. Consider the move Thousand Arrows; it's what's considered to give Zygarde the boost it needs to get into the Uber tier alone due to unbelievable coverage; the fact levitators and flying types exist in the numbers they do is what keeps Ground from being a perfectly balanced type. Decent weaknesses, decent movepool, decent Pokemon, decent Resistances, great coverage; but not Fairy or Gen V Dragon level. Anything that messes too much with Ground should really not be allowed. (In that vein I feel discomforted at the idea of Poison > Water; IS water a balanced type now that rain is no longer infinite? My gut says it's a very very good type, but I don't know if it's worthy of a nerf since it already got one. The difference between gen V Fighting and gen VI Fighting is pretty incredible, and doing the same for water may or may not be worth it... it'd without a doubt make Poison types actually viable though.)

[OverlordJ]

Mind you D, I don't think Electric should be weak to Ice, just that Ice should resist Electric. Mainly because it has both logical AND meta reasons. While water is usually knows for being a good conductor, that is only true because of the many things dissolved in it, pure H2O is a pretty bad conductor. And once it gets frozen, even regular water stops being a good conductor, because the dissolved things are now no longer moving freely, or something. I'm no expert. Point is, Electric should be bad against Ice. And the meta reason is that Ice basically doesn't resist anything and Electric is basically resisted by nothing.

Poison is more tricky and I wonder if another resistance wouldn't benefit them more then someone being weak to them...

[d_what]

Poison Resist Water? Seems fair. Gives new life to Nidoking and Nidoqueen, Toxicroak doesn't become OP, Nothing really changes for MVenusaur, Tentacruel becomes a better Water check, still loses out to Ground/Water and Psychic/Water Pokemon though... Dragalge would be another great Water counter that could possibly tank Keldeo.

But not really much change there all things considered. Besides using Toxic, which any Pokemon can do, most of the Pokemon there don't have anything do DO to the Water Pokemon they switch into, except the ones that could apply pressure to it ANYWAY (e.g. the myriad Grass/Poisons or Dragalge.) Also it would give a resistance to Gengar which seems weird. It's odd, but I'm always reluctant to make any changes to Poison, Rock or Bug when I realise they'll improve Gengar, Tyranitar and Scizor. They just don't need the boosts.

PSYCHIC THOUGH
WORST TYPE IN THE GAME NOW SERIOUSLY

[OverlordJ]

Hmm, I suppose they ARE a bit outclassed now.

[kotakun]

psychic has so many awesome pokemon and absolutely nothing to do with that awesomeness because of how nerfed theyve become after gen one okay maybe in gen two they still had some sort of a foothold but nowadays theres nothing

on another note im also proud to be a member of the grade skip club 8th

[OverlordJ]

Ah, good old gen one, where Poison was the most common type and Psychic had one of the strongest attacks while being resisted by noone but themself and basically nothing they were weak to.

[Spark Eletran]

just wanna pop up and say
most people seem to be on a consensus that if ghost was nve and weak to fairy instead of dark being that'd be more balanced
soooo? idk

[cephalopodAscendant]

I know they're afraid of Psychic dominating like it did back in Gen I, but I think they've gone too far in the other direction at this point. Psychic has the counters it should have had back in RBY, so let's see some good Psychic types that aren't legendary.

[OverlordJ]

I think I disagree, for a couple reasons.

Lets compare Dark and Ghost as attacking moves. Pretty similar, the difference before gen 6 was that Fighting resisted Dark while Normal was Immune to Ghost moves. If given the choice, a Dark type attack was better.

And as defensive types? Well, Ghost is immune to Fighting and Normal, that's pretty nice. But they are weak to Dark type moves and lets me tell you, pretty much everyone and their grandmother has access to Dark moves. What about Dark? Well, an immunity to Psychic used to be great but it got more and more pointless. And a weakness to Fighting is not something anyone wants. A bit hard, but I'd probably say Ghost got it better here.

So why am I so against what you proposed? That answer is pretty simple. Psychic types got access to Dazzling Gleam. Between that and the fact that Steel nolonger resists Ghost, they are finally able to at least do SOMETHING against their counters. Sure, I'd have prefered Aura Sphere for Alakazam but it was clear that wouldn't happen

[invisibleTerrarium]

psychic has so many awesome pokemon and absolutely nothing to do with that awesomeness

CASES IN POINT: GALLADE. STARMIE. ALAKAZAM. MALAMAR. GARDEVOIR. ADMITTEDLY THE TYPING ISNT THOSE GUYS' ONLY PROBLEMS BUT IT SURE AS HELL DOESN'T HELP.

on another note im also proud to be a member of the grade skip club 8th

*MORE FIST BUMPS BUNPS*

I've been playing a lot of Project M Patt Edition lately, which is a huge skinpack for Project M that adds six or seven skins for every character but Game and Watch, who gets new colors instead. I think it's safe to say that this makes Smash Bros Brawl the only game where you can make Boba Fett fight Ronald McDonald.

[Hanky Panky]

all i have to add to this conversation as a poison type master race is that we need more things we can hit for SE damage.

[invisibleTerrarium]

Jesus christ can you not do strikethroughs on this forum?? I tried like three different codes

[cephalopodAscendant]

Do none of y'all actually use the handy text editor buttons? Because there's a strikethrough button right next to the bold, italics, and underline ones.

[OverlordJ]

Indeed, and the code is [strike][/strike], which seem pretty obvious, honestly

[invisibleTerrarium]

Ipads do strange things when you click buttons, so i never use those

[cephalopodAscendant]

Well there's your problem. Why would you ever try to use a mobile browser regularly? The internet is not mobile-friendly for the time being.

[d_what]

OJ, Dazzling Gleam is in no way a real boost for Psychic types. It's merely another option. First, low base power and no additional effects make it a "meh" move. Second, while the two circumvent Poison and Dark resistances together, they're still left completely open against the Steel Type; that alone makes them have poor coverage (always shooting for neutral among single-types) and Steel types are incredibly common. Plus Dazzling Gleam is pretty easy to work around for Dark Types anyway; TTar has that huge Sp.Def, Bisharp is a Steel Type, Weavile dies to everything and will still hurt you... Not ideal. One of the few things Psychic types can boast is their massive movepool; most of them are already stuck for space on their sets when you take into account Baton Pass, Recover, Calm mind, and all the myriad things they can do. Espeon'd BP set uses Dazzling Gleam but only because at +6 a STAB Stored Power mauls most things regardless of typing and you need something to hit Dark, but it is in no way a fix.

Psychic types are typically good /despite/, not because of, their typing. Starmie would love to lose it and only occasionally runs Psychic for all-out offense or to hit MVenusaur. It would prefer Fairy, and it can NEVER find room for Dazzling Gleam. Alakazam's best coverage is well known and it's not DG, and it still hates its typing. Its the stats and ability it's used for.Latios has excellent stats, an excellent movepool and a Dragon Typing for four additional resistances. And it would prefer fairy. Gardevoir is used for its stats, super strong Fairy coverage and occasionally will-o-wisp. It could probably do mono-fairy. None really scream "I love psychic defensively" or "wooooh stab psychic."

[OverlordJ]

I know that it is "just" another option but considering that "having options" is, as far as I can tell, currently Psychics only Strenght, I'd say another option, especially one that hits Dark types, is nice to have. I'm by no means saying that Psychic is as strong as it used to be thanks to Dazzling Gleam they at least have another option. And if Fairy was super effective against Ghosts instead of against Dark, it would have been worse for Psychic.

[d_what]

Interesting threads on the topic:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dazzling-gleam.3491003/

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/psychic-typing.3502499/

and also for funsies
http://pokemondb.net/tools/type-coverage

[invisibleTerrarium]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-132687899

I know I should put this in the replay thread, but this is too good to pass up. Some poor bastard made the mistake of intimidating a defiant bisharp that was already at 2x attack and got murdered.
Also, look at my shiny 1310 ranking. It's pretty sexy.

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