The TCG Corner

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:25 pm

Okay, for traps, there are three answers:
1) Yes, ther are facedown cards BUT they are always permanents, usually creatures. They are fun but very different from what traps are like
2) Of course we have spells you can cast during your opponents turn, they are called instant (sorcery spells can only be played during your turn) technically there is more to it then that but they fit what you are trying to do, so I'll skip some details. Note however that you CAN cast instants during your turn as well
3) There is actually a special subtype of instants known as traps, they all have special conditions under which you can cast them cheaper

As for the effects, the first should be possible but is usually blue, rarely a black, effect.
The second seems doable in black, though would probably be a bit expensive.
The third already kind of exists, the fourth could be done in blue, the fifth in black and the sixth already exists.

The main problem I see is that those spells will cost mana in MtG, which means you can't spend that mana on a creature, which will slow you down...
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Aug 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Yeah, that's one of those things that really causes a lot of differences; Yugioh doesn't really have any upper limit to what you can do until you actually run out of cards - except the "one normal summon a turn" rule, but that's the FIRST hurdle that decent decks jump over. Lumina, for instance. Reincarnation and Beckoning Light do essentially the same thing, only Light is much more ham-fisted and broad. Nevertheless, they should be just as good a play as playing a monster is, if not better, since putting something you want IN to the grave and taking something OUT for one play is just so perfect. And often necessary! It's just a balance thing really. Those instant traps sound cool - Breakthrough in particular sounds like one of those things, with the first being a lower cost effect but the "in grave" being slightly harder to do.

Honestly if you really want a "feel" for the deck, playing it on YGOPRO is the best way. There's no way I can really describe it's plays to someone who hasn't experienced them!

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:07 pm

Hmm, I'll see what I can do.

Meanwhile, I did a little something. I do have some questions though.
Breakthrough Skill can't stop Flip Effects, right?
Can you play Monster Reincarnation if you have no cards in your hand?
Why can't Beckoning Light return Light creatures you just discarded?

Spell Cards:
Breakthrough Skill
Cost:1W
Instant
Uncommon
Until end of turn, target creature loses all abilities.
Flashback 1B (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)
You may cast this card from your gaveyard only during your turn.

Charge of the Light Brigade
Cost:W
Sorcery
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Charge of the Light Brigade, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.
Search your library for a Lightsworn creature card with converted mana cost of 2 or less and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library. (I made it so it can only find reatures you can revive with Lumina and dropped the cost to W, this might need to become a rare now, this could be very powerful now...)

Monster Reincarnation
Cost:B
Sorcery
Uncommon
Discard a card, then return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

Solar Recharge - I guess it could be made to work in Black and/or Blue but it would have to cost AT LEAST three mana, which'll make it too slow for you most likely. Also, it'd be an odd name for Black and/or Blue
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Tue Aug 12, 2014 1:50 pm

Yes, Breakthrough skill will stop any effect that isn't a cost if it comes from a monster (though it'll obviously have to be chained to the activation of the flip effect). Breakthroug can totally stop Ryko destroying something.

You can't play MR with no (or just MR) cards in your hand, because you are unable to pay the cost of the card (which is the discarding). On costs: If something destroyed MR as it activated, it wouldn't return anything to the hand but it WOULD send something to the grave, because the cost gets paid in order to activate. If BR halts Lumina from summoning a Raiden, Raiden doesn't get summoned but Lumina still discards a card from the hand. In a similar way, you can't play Beckoning without target cards in the hand since you can't definitely follow through with the card's effect, even if the cards you return are ultimately the ones you sent.

Monster Reincarnation is a pretty generic card that goes into any archetype in YGO, it's not light-specific, though the others are.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:18 pm

Okay, in that case, either Breakthrough Skill needs to be blue and more expensive or it'll have to be weaker, because the way it is right now it'll be unable to stop effects like the one we gave Ryko. (Well, technically it could stop the effect from Ryko if you time it correctly but probably not the way you'd like)

Okay, changing MR to work like that is fairly easy. Though just to be clear, it probably won't be played as much in MtG. Madness Decks will love it and some reanimator dcks could get some use out of that. But it'll serve the purpose you have in mind.

Can you explain BL a bit more? Like, why can't I discard a hand with three cards and a Light card to get three Light cards and the Light card I already had?
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:02 pm

You can totally do that. But there has to be at least 4 light cards in the graveyard to do that. There's probably an official reasoning behind it. It's a bit weird though, since the discard for Beckoning isn't a cost and it can be cancelled. The ruling goes as follows: 

They probably do is to prevent pointless moves (like how you can't use a Potion on a pokemon with full health). It's just a quirk I guess. So yeah, in summary, you can discard a hand full of Light cards and the return those same cards in your hand, but only if there were enough Light cards in your graveyard to make the move before it activated.


What would happen regarding Ryko? I've... already forgotten how we sorted that out.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:28 pm

Would it be a big deal if I simply ignored that restriction so that you can play BL no matter how many Light cards are in your graveyard?

As for Breakthrough Skill, you'll first need to understand how those things work in MtG. I'll try to keep it as simple as possible.

Spoiler:
First of all, in Yu-Gi-Oh! you have chains or something, right? Like "I play a spell card" "I react with my trap card" "I react with my counter trap card", right? In MtG, stuff like that happens in a special place called "the stack". Keep that in mind, that'll become important later.

Okay, so, for effects, there are three types of effects, static, triggered and activated. I'll first give you an example for each of those that have nothing to do with MtG.
Static: "This thing is huge." This is a static effect. There are no ifs or buts, its just a statement that is true. An example from the Lightsworn cards would be Aurkus. Lightsworn can't be targets. No ifs or buts, just a statement that is true.
Triggered: "Whenever someone burps, punch them in the shoulder." This is a triggered effect. As you can see, the effect ("Punch someone in the shoulder.") is triggered by a condition ("Whenever someone burps"). Triggered effects can usually be found by looking for ifs, whens or whenevers. An example from the Lightsworn cards would be Ehren. The trigger is attacking a creature that is in defense position.
Activated: "Do the Hokey-Pokey: Tell us what it's all about." This is an activated effect. As you can see, you first need to do something ("Do the Hokey-Pokey") in order to activate the effect ("Tell us what it's all about."). Activated effect can always be found, because they always have a : between the cost and the effect (at least in MtG). An example from the Lightsworn cards would be JD. First you pay life points, then the effect happens.

Okay, so, why am I telling you all this?
Well, you need those informations to understand how Breakthrough Skill currently interacts with effects.

The most simple example would be using it against a static effect.
Jain has First Strike. That is a static effect. If you target Jain with Breakthrough Skill, he stops having First Strike. Yay. This works just as it should.

Triggered abilities are more tricky. Lets take Ehren as an example.
Example 1: You are outside of combat. You activate Breakthrough Skill. Ehren loses her effect. Yay, just as intendet.
Example 2: Ehren is attacking but you haven't declared a blocker yet. You activate Breakthrough Skill. Ehren loses her effect. Yay, again.
Example 3: Ehren is attacking, you declare a blocker. Ehrens effect gets triggered. You respond by activating Breakthrough Skill. This is a bit more complicated now. What happens is that Ehrens effect is put on the stack when it triggers. Everyone can respond to it and you did, by playing BS. BS is now put on top of the stack. Assuming noone wants to respond to it, the stack now resolves. Last in, first out. So the effect of BS happens and Ehren loses her effect. Yay?
Not yay. Because once the effect entered the stack, it doesn't matter what happens to the creature. So the effect still resolves. So you wasted your spell. Whoopsy.

Now, for Ehren, this is no big deal, you just need to remember to use that spell before you block.
Rinyan however ALSO has a triggered effect (it is triggered by entering the battlefield). Since Rinyan isn't a valid target before she enters the field, BS can't stop her effect. That might not seem like a big deal but other creatures have better effects like that and then it'll matter.

This post is getting long and activated effects are more complicated, so I'll make a second post for that.


Last edited by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:13 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I added a spoiler tag so I don't clutter the thread)
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:04 pm

Second post because the first was getting long:
Okay, so activated effects.

I'll use the following cards as examples:
Lightsworn cards:
(Ryko)
Hunting Dog of the Light
Cost:1W
Creature - Lightsworn Hound
0/1
Uncommon
W, T, Sacrifice Hunting Dog of the Light : Destroy target attacking creature, then put the top three cards from your library into your graveyard

Judgement Dragon
Cost:2WWW
Legendary Creature - Dragon
5/4
Mythic Rare
When Judgement Dragon enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have four Lightsworn creature cards with different names in your graveyard. Flying; Lightcycle 6; 1WW, pay 5 life: Destroy all other creatures.

(Lumina)
Lightsworn Spiritcaller
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Human Shaman
1/1
Uncommon
Lightcycle 3; 1B, discard a card: Return target Lightsworn creature with converted mana cost of 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. You can only use this effect once per turn and only when you could cast a sorcery.

Okay, so first a little something about the stack. When there is already something on the stack, only things with instant speed can enter the stack. Obviouly, Instant spells have instant speed but also most activated effects.

Now that you know this, lets look at the examples.

1) Ryko is on the field, there are no attacking creatures.
You play BS. Now any player can respond. Technically, your opponent COULD activate Rykos effect but this would only mean that Ryko dies, since there is no attacking creature for Ryko to destroy. If they don't activate Rykos effect now, Ryko will lose its effect for the rest of the turn, so BS sort of works. Yay

2) Ryko is on the field and there are attacking creatures.
Well, now he can totally respond by activating the effect. Since the effect enters the stack after BS, it'll happen before BS even activates. So, this doesn't work. Dang.

3) Ryko activated its effect, you respond with BS.
Just like in the Ehren example, you waste your spell. Whoops.

Okay, so, as long as they haven't activated yet and they have no sensible target, it can stop activated effects, what else.

4) JD is on the field, you play BS on JD
Your enemy can now activate JDs effect as a response. So, that doesn't help.

5) JD activates its effect.
As you might guess, BS does nothing here as well.

So, unless they have another reason not to activate the effect, BS just does nothing here. Pretty crappy.

So, why am I dragging Lumina into this? Well, Luminas effect states that it can only be used if you could cast a sorcery. In other words, her effect DOESN'T activate at instant speed.

6) Lumina hasn't activated her effect yet, you cast BS
Congratulations, you actually stopped her effect. Yay.

7) Lumina activated her effect, you respond w-I think you can already guess that this won't work.

So, what would we need to stop all those effects? The answer is simple. Stifle. However, Stifle-like effects are VERY rare, exclusivly Blue and very powerful. And trust me, you do not want to add Blue to your deck just to play a single spell.

So, yeah...
If you want BS to have a stifle effect (see spoilers above) combined with the effect it has right now, it would work almost like it does in Yu-Gi-Oh! but it'd have to be blue and cost at least two mana, probably three. And that'd be both too expensive and off colour for your Lightsworn guys.


Last edited by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added spoilers as well)
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:10 pm

Haha, this is funny. Specifically, the similarities between the two games. Things like trigger/continuous effects? Yeah they all exist in specific terms in-game. Almost word for word, actually. And also, BS has a bit of an extra clause; it's implicit though because this applies to a lot of cards with effects. I don't completely understand it myself since I don't run many traps. But basically, unless something that happens within the Battle Step (a sub-chain/stack where things happen to do with battling) is mentioned in a card's effect, you can't activate it during the battle step. So in all those examples you mentioned? Yeah that's basically how it works. You COULD cancel Ehren's effect, but only if you did it prematurely and not while it's involved in a battle. And with Ryko, if he triggers his effect himself, then you can activate BS, but not if it's triggered during battle. Same stuff! Cool, huh?

The JD example is a worry though. In terms of stacks, the Trap card would take priority unless it was a quick-effect or a cost that happened, so you're supposed to be able to play BS and negate JD's nuking. 

Another quirk is that BS negates all parts of an effect for the turn (except costs), so most of the LS guys - bar Celestia and Felis because they mill as a cost - don't mill for that turn, either. But that's probably not something that can be translated easily without negating all traits a card has, like Flying. I dunno. Is there already a card that conveys the spirit of all of this? Quick monster effect negation (and then add the grave-activation thing separately)? It sounds like there isn't because of that Stifle thing. Negation is a pretty common thing in YGO, if it isn't in MtG then that's just our loss.

(And ignoring the restriction on BL isn't a worry. It's a fairly niche case anyway.)

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:56 pm

Actually, right now BS would totally remove all effects, including milling and Flying. And there is no way to absolutely prevent JDs effect, because as I said, once the effect enters the stack, it is (usually) independent from its original source. So even playing a spell that would destroy JD wouldn't prevent you from activating his effect first. In fact, even Stifle can't fully prevent the effect, since you can just activate it again (though you'd of course need to pay the cost again)

The stack works differently in Magic because no effects take priority, all that matters is the order, last in, first out. And the fact that effects are independent from the source (not to be confused with spells) is also a difference.

Monster effect negation is NOT a common thing in MtG, at least not directly. There are plenty of ways to do it indirectly, but they depend on the exact effect. For example, you could respond to Rykos effect by giving your creature protection from white. That means it becomes an illegal target and the effect "fizzles". Actually, causing an effect or spell to fizzle is one of the best ways to protect yourself if you aren't playing blue. Except that mostly only works for spells and effects with a target, so JD wouldn't care. Honestly, I can only think of few ways to directly prevent JDs effect and almost none of them work if the player has enough mana and life to activate the effect multiple times.

So yeah, effect prevention isn't as common but at the same time, we usually don't get creatures that can nuke the field all by themself.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Wed Aug 13, 2014 12:38 pm

Okay, so, this is what I have right now

Spoiler:
Breakthrough Skill
Cost:1W
Instant
Uncommon
Until end of turn, target creature loses all abilities.
Flashback 1B (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)
You may cast this card from your gaveyard only during your turn.

Charge of the Light Brigade
Cost:W
Sorcery
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Charge of the Light Brigade, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.
Search your library for a Lightsworn creature card with converted mana cost of 2 or less and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

Beckoning Light
Cost: 1B
Sorcery
Common
Discard your hand. Return X target white creature cards from your graveyard to your hand, where X is the number of cards you discarded.

Monster Reincarnation
Cost:B
Sorcery
Common
As an additional cost to cast Monster Reincarnation, discard a card.
Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

I am a bit unsure about BL and I want to ask, would it be possible to discard less then all of your cards? Also MR is pretty crappy, especially because I found an old card that does the same but better

Restless Dreams:
Restless Dreams
Cost:B
Sorcery
Common
As an additional cost to cast Restless Dreams, discard X cards.
Return X target creature cards from your graveyard to your hand.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:47 pm

*cough, cough* this thread exists *cough, cough*

man it needs an airing. The DUST in here is making me *COUGH COUgh cough* aaaACHHHEM

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:22 pm

Well, maybe it wouldn't be so dusty if you replied and said what you think about the cards I posted in that spoiler. *COUGHCOUGHHINTHINTCOUGHCOUGH*
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Aug 25, 2014 5:39 am

...you posted cards? Eheheh whoops. I have got to stop not reading things.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:07 am

Well, here are my last two posts:

Spoiler:
OverlordJ wrote:Actually, right now BS would totally remove all effects, including milling and Flying. And there is no way to absolutely prevent JDs effect, because as I said, once the effect enters the stack, it is (usually) independent from its original source. So even playing a spell that would destroy JD wouldn't prevent you from activating his effect first. In fact, even Stifle can't fully prevent the effect, since you can just activate it again (though you'd of course need to pay the cost again)

The stack works differently in Magic because no effects take priority, all that matters is the order, last in, first out. And the fact that effects are independent from the source (not to be confused with spells) is also a difference.

Monster effect negation is NOT a common thing in MtG, at least not directly. There are plenty of ways to do it indirectly, but they depend on the exact effect. For example, you could respond to Rykos effect by giving your creature protection from white. That means it becomes an illegal target and the effect "fizzles". Actually, causing an effect or spell to fizzle is one of the best ways to protect yourself if you aren't playing blue. Except that mostly only works for spells and effects with a target, so JD wouldn't care. Honestly, I can only think of few ways to directly prevent JDs effect and almost none of them work if the player has enough mana and life to activate the effect multiple times.

So yeah, effect prevention isn't as common but at the same time, we usually don't get creatures that can nuke the field all by themself.
OverlordJ wrote:Okay, so, this is what I have right now

Spoiler:
Breakthrough Skill
Cost:1W
Instant
Uncommon
Until end of turn, target creature loses all abilities.
Flashback 1B (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its flashback cost. Then exile it.)
You may cast this card from your gaveyard only during your turn.

Charge of the Light Brigade
Cost:W
Sorcery
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Charge of the Light Brigade, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.
Search your library for a Lightsworn creature card with converted mana cost of 2 or less and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

Beckoning Light
Cost: 1B
Sorcery
Common
Discard your hand. Return X target white creature cards from your graveyard to your hand, where X is the number of cards you discarded.

Monster Reincarnation
Cost:B
Sorcery
Common
As an additional cost to cast Monster Reincarnation, discard a card.
Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand.

I am a bit unsure about BL and I want to ask, would it be possible to discard less then all of your cards? Also MR is pretty crappy, especially because I found an old card that does the same but better

Restless Dreams:
Restless Dreams
Cost:B
Sorcery
Common
As an additional cost to cast Restless Dreams, discard X cards.
Return X target creature cards from your graveyard to your hand.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:03 pm

So, guess who just went and gone and did buy one of his friends the parts to a good meta Yugioh deck :O
that's right
Obama did, happy birthday Hollande
(not rly tho)

So I feel kinda/sorta bad about it, since it's not so much of an impulse buy as it is a slowly-gnawing-away-at-you-whilst-worrying-about-price-increases buy. And it's more expensive than the stuff I usually do - actually no it isn't, but the difference here is right now I have no income and petrol to pay for :/ But then, I'm a young professional, my friends are young professionals, and dammit if I'm not going to play a proper game with my own deck by the end of the year.
(Note: Really not that into yugioh, sans some nostalgia from 2009 and appreciation for the game, same as any other game I play really.)

While doing it I also picked myself up a few "improvements" Very Happy The banlist was really kind to both decks this year - my Lightsworns got access to 2 Honest (totally OP honestly), and the new birthday Blackwings finally had Gale unlimited at 3, long overdue Very Happy I've always liked Blackwings, and I appreciate the duality between the dark/light themes our decks make. Plus both are around equal on the meta rankings and both were popular around the same time Very Happy The only catch is, I didn't buy him a full deck. BWs are getting really good support in a few months and I didn't want to get filler. Also, said support is likely going to be really expensive, but hey, I just did all the heavy purchasing, so who cares.

So yeah that's Eoin's Forays Into Yugioh and Excessive Gift Giving, tune in again in June, when we investigate games I can buy for people!

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:04 pm

Oh hey, remember when we turned Yu-Gi-Oh! cards into MtG cards? Maybe we could do that for some of those Blackwing things?
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:54 pm

They're not that interesting :/ Lightsworns had a unique milling quirk, Blackwings are just a regular archetype that in some formats swarms and in other goes for control, but doesn't do either particularly well. I've been told it's a swarm deck, but... LS outspeeds it on that count Neutral and it only does control because of archetype-specific cards called Black Sonic (banishes all opposing monsters on attack) and Delta Crow (removes all set spells/traps). It's a pretty vanilla deck. I like it, but it's not particularly special.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:52 am

Aww, alright I guess.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:49 pm

I gave my friend the deck btw Very Happy He was THRILLED and really appreciated it! And we've had some (not a lot, too busy) games together. So far I've won all but the first but then his deck isn't finished yet, I was very clear about that.
(For a start, it's only 39 cards and several of them are filler...)

But anyway my enthusiasm must've been infectious because he went ahead and bought a /box/ of the newest Premium Gold set, 5 miniboxes with a pack each, about 60 euros. It's not like he'll even end up with the things he wants (though he'll get some) so idk what he was thinking! I am *not* going down that road again. Splitting a box of Pokemon's Dark Explorers set between 4 people was enough for me thank YOU! (Gosh draft formats are always fun aren't they??)

I ALSO found out about a cool european site for Yugioh cards, something like yugiohcardmarket.eu or something. It has some really neat tricks like a deck wizard which works out the cheapest way to buy all the cards you want. WAY cheaper than TrollAndToad too because it's european... found out a deck I've been messing with costs only 32 euro including shipping and a decent extra deck.
It's rather tempting, but also pretty pointless. Like... what would I even do with a second deck??

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for people who have played in different series's leagues/locals/fandoms/whatever, have you noticed a significant difference in playerbase? The impression I get from the yugioh crowd is... they're kind of rough and rude Sad Theft is rampant as is rule sharking and put-downs. Pokemon was pretty clean, not just by comparison! I don't know much about the MtG crowd except that they have a habit of not pulling their pants up enough. (Google search that imgur gallery, it was hilarious.)

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Tue Apr 07, 2015 2:37 pm

From what I know about MtG it differs a lot depending on how serious the tournament is. But as far as I know, almost noone breaks the rules on purpose.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:21 pm

Necro but w/e.

(play spot-the-thing-you-recognise)

It is at this point, when I am considering how I spend my money, I would benefit from thinking "this is why I can't have nice things." But I do have nice things. It's just that they're all Pokémon cards.


Screw all y'all for not playing the second best version of Pokemon in the series Razz

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Re: The TCG Corner

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