The TCG Corner

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:36 pm

Yep

Yep that sounds good

Yep that sounds REALLY FRIGGIN GOOD jeez I'd almost make a tumblr just for that! If I knew any more than (2) people who played both MtG and YuGiOh I would totally be waving this in their faces. I've seen just enough custom cards in MtG to give me the impression that they're not exactly a niche hobby?

Pokemon cards cannot say that. They really can't. Most custom Pokemon cards are terrible all over Sad Also people never use their own art for them. Pokemon are easy to draw Sad

I suppose now the only thing left is to build a deck and (?) playtest. Dunno how you're supposed to playtest. I found a website that lets you copy in card names and then gives you a random number of cards for a hand (though that's easy code) but that's about it.

What I will recommend for starting purposes is:

4 Lumina
4 Raiden
2-3 Plaguespreader
4 Necro Gardna
1 Realm Of Light
3/4 Wulf
2-4 Lyla (depends on whether you think her effect is any good in MtG)
3-4 Ryko (likewise)
2-3 Minerva
1-2 Celestia
4 Judgment Dragon
3-4 Michael
4 Charge of the Light Brigade (though it's illegal to have more than 1 in Yugioh)
+ max how ever many Solar Recharges you can fit in and not have it be broken; how about draw 1 and mill 2? Is that fair?
2 Ehren
2 Jain/Garoth/Combination of both
4 Monster Reincarnation

*assorted synchros, I'd recommend Stardust Dragon, Goyo Guardian, Catastor, Colossal Warrior; there's loads really... but you wouldn't want many since they'll clog your hand)*

and after that whatever you'd like for filler (incl. other Lightsworns) and lands. And maybe DAD if we make his cost require Grave'd cards.

WHOOPS I forget did we do Beckoning Light, the trap card? (Trap cards can activate at any time during the game EXCEPT during the owner's turn that they're played in) and if you're interested, another Trap card that could be very viable in MtG is Breakthrough Skill. When activated, it negates one of your opponent's monster's effects. But that's not the cool part. When it's in the graveyard, at any point (during YOUR turn) you can activate it again and banish it. Pretty cool for denial purposes, though I don't have the space to run any anymore.


SHIIIIIIIT I JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING!
Minerva initially only searched for Dragons. Funnily enough, Michael is a Dragon (???). But her effect normally wouldn't apply to him since he's in the Extra and not the regular deck. But now that Synchros are in the regular deck, her effect could be extended to him (although I'd consider reducing the #LS needed to 6).


(BTW there's a downside to Plaguespreader; if it was summoned with its own effect then it's banished when removed from the field. That's to stop you looping it infinitely.)

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:11 pm

Okay, I'll post more in a sec but most importantly THAT DECK WILL NEVER WORK YOU NEED MANA, WHICH YOU GET MOSTLY FROM LANDS AND YOU ONLY HAVE THREE LANDS THAT WILL NEVER WORK

EDIT: NO WAIT, YOU ONLY HAVE ONE, ARRGH!
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:19 pm

Wait. Did I seriously put in 57 cards? Lmao sorry I wasn't counting and hoped they'd add to about 40ish lol

Ummm

4 Lyla, Raiden, JD (12)
3 Lyla, Wulf, Ryko (21)
2 Ehren, 2 Minerva, 1 Garoth, 1 Jain (27)
1 Celestia, 2 Michael (30)
okay cool
(In Yugioh, Lightsworns are VERY monster heavy and run almost no spells or traps. We'll work backwards where they are concerned and I'll leave space for lands.)
4 Necro
2 Plague
2 Catastor

and then Realm of Light and Lands; anything else that wants to get added will shave numbers off anything bar Lumina (and maybe Raiden and JD unless it's unavoidable).

EDIT: I was just thinking. The 22-24 lands that are recommended in any deck... how many of them are typically on the field by the end of the game? Because most are gonna get milled. Which will mean either waaay more lands or we'll have to lower the costs (in turn balanced out by the fact that they'll mill lands.) Yugioh doesn't have any analogue for lands so this could be the hardest thing to balance.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:27 pm

Okay, a couple of issues

1) You listed Lyla rwice, I assume the first is supposed to be Lumina?
2) You don't want four JDs, they kill your tempo
3) There are... a couple other issues with your deck

Okay, I will post a reply to the stuff in your first post soon and I will fix the rush deck I posted previously.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:44 pm

Firstly, I'm against giving Minerva more effects, she's overflowing by MtG standarts as is.

Secondly, Plagespreader Zombie has the Unearth keyword, an existing keyword, with the following effect:
Unearth X (Pay X: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step or if it would leave the battlefield. Unearth only as a sorcery.)

Lastly, I didn't do any spells or traps except Charge of the Light Brugade. Feel free to list all spells and traps you want me to turn into magic cards
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 2:12 pm

Alright, so assuming you meant 4 Luminas, your mana curve looks like this:

1: 10 (Lumina 4, Raiden 4, Minerva 2)
2: 15 (Lyla 3, Ryko 3, Ehren 2, Jain 1, Necro 4, Plague 2)
3: 3 (Wulf 3)
4: 2 (Garoth 1, Celestia 1)
5: 4 (JD 4)
7: 2 (Michael)

?: 2 Catastor

Okay, so, the mana curve looks mostly okay on first glace but lets look closer. Out of your 1 CMCs, which one do you want to play on turn 1? Lumina and risk not having a good reanimation target, thus risking her pointlessly? Raiden and risking loosing your best turner? Minerva and completly losing her JD searching effect? Right now, Raiden is probably your best bet but you need some better attackers. Out of your CMC 2 creatures, who do you actually want to play? Well, Lyla is okay, but not really a good attacker. Ryko is a great defense but useless for attacks. Ehren is okay, but will die quickly all the time, without some support. Jain is probably your best bet but you only have one and he'd be much better with some support as well. I suppose you could play Necro but he is rather defensive himself. Plague is useless in the offense.

Are you noticing a pattern here? For a supposedly fast deck, your cards are way better at defense then at offense!

At three cmc you got Wulf, who is good if you manage to drop him early but a 3/3 without effect won't scare your enemy for long.

4 cmc is really the upper limit for spells. You have two and, yeah, I guess those two are actually fine.

You have four JDs. That's way too much. They are strong but a rush deck won't give you the time to summon him.

The two Michaels are okay, if you play Raiden on turn one and one of your nine 2 cmc lightsworn on turn 2 you can bring him out on turn 3, which could be nice.


All in all, where is the supposed speed? Seriously, I've seen control decks faster then this, holy crap.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:14 pm

I reworked the deck I posted before to fit the changes that were made

Lightsworn Rush 2.0:
CREATURES:

4× Shire
4× Raiden
4× Jain
2× Ehren
2× Aurkus
2× Lumina
2× Wulf
4× Jötun Grunt
2× Brawn
2× Valor
2× Glory

SPELLS:

4× Life from the Loam
2× Raven's Crime
2× Ray of Revelution
2× Evolution Charm

LANDS:

4× Temple Garden
4× Godless Shrine
4× Windswept Heath
3× Realm of Light
2× Marsh Flats
2× Plains
1× Emeria, Sky Ruin

SIDEBOARD:

2× Lyla
2× Aurkus
2× Lumina
4× Folk Medizine/Gnaw to the Bone
2× Raven's Crime
2× Flagstones of Trokair
1× Realm of Light
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 3:50 pm

But OJ, you've just built a regular run of the... (dammit, pun alert) mill deck that mills a little. It won't perform consistently (or at least, what a Lightsworn given access to MtG cards deck could run at). When I said Lightsworns are a toolbox/run a lot of monsters I really /really/ wasn't kidding.

See, the problem is the mill. If you have any decent amount of milling going on (which you WANT, the cards are useless in the deck) then you're going to lose a lot of your cards to the graveyard. This is bad for spells/traps/artifacts/etc. But it's good for Monsters/Creatures. So you skew it: The more the merrier (providing you have space for your Lands, of course.) Any spells or alternative monsters HAVE to be either cheap and worth the opportunity cost (Charge of the Light Brigade and Solar Recharge are incredibly good, far better than any of the 20 or so staple spells/traps that typical decks run) and be able to both further the deck's goal and work with its unique costs.

Judgment Dragon is an example of this. 4 is clunky, yes: 2 Judgment Dragons in the hand is not a great way to start. But honestly? That 4 LS does not take long and I would rather have them in my hand than in the grave... and in any decent LS deck JD is far, far more likely to be in the Grave. Because of the mill. At any given point in time, most of your cards will be in the graveyard - albeit temporarily. And any card you have that gets Judgment back into the hand risks being milled itself, even if you run max of them! (Which I do.) Also, 2 at start is bad in yugioh, and you only draw 5 in your starting hand! In MtG it's even less of an issue! You cannot, CANNOT afford to not play Judgment Dragon in a lightsworn match, and in many I'd be playing two. Also consider: After summoning a JD from the hand, and then Nuking: I can summon another JD. With no cost, because there are already 4 LS in the grave - they don't get banished. This wins games! In YGO, a single JD is a 3HK0 at most (disproportionately, this would mean an attack of 7) and having access to multiples once that initial cost is "paid" (if it's even a cost) is crucial. JD's effect (might not be mentioned on the MtG equivalent) restricts it to being summoned from the hand, and Minerva's search is situational at best.

Speaking mathematically - 3/40 cards in a lightsworn deck is both maximised and ideal. The equivalent in a 60 card deck is 4.5 cards... the 4 you'd get in reality doesn't even reach that. Though the decimal rounding down might accommdate for the lands you have.


Anyway, if it seems like the LSs aren't performing well attackwise, just boost their stats. Raiden, Lyla, Garoth and Jain are all "above average" for their level - I know you don't want to raise them because that would require raising their costs, but don't forget: Lightsworn canon admits that they have below average costs (as in, good costs) and above average strength. It's the milling. The milling is the difference, and the reason they've been made to be good. LS aren't fast because they mill, they're fast because they *have* to be, or else they lose to milling. Gardna is defensive because he stalls for time while you're trying to set up the engine in the first place -  a first turn without a mill is not a good turn, but it doesn't count as a turn closer to decking out because you haven't milled yet. And in terms of strength, with a high mill speed, Wulf provides all of that for free. You are guaranteed a great beatstick with a high Wulf count - Jain and the rest cannot compare. Add a card like Foolish Burial (the one that puts things from the deck into the grave?) and you can summon him FROM THE DECK, FOR FREE! :O

As for Lumina...! Lumina is a 4-off without exception. Besides Wulf (who is a liability in the hand without a Lumina to discard him) no other Lightsworn besides maybe Gragonith can work with the fact you are milling a lot of cards in the graveyard. To the rest of them, it's just a negative downside to their existence. She's what makes it the toolbox in the first place, and aids hugely in your synchro summons. 

--disclaimer: She actually detracts from JD's summoning. But that's okay. Because what she does is remove your cards from the graveyard /onto the field/, as an initial line of defense: As soon as the opponent breaks the line you KNOW you're gonna be able to summon JD. And you can choose to break it yourself whenever you want. --

Also, while a first-turn with Lumina isn't a great start because she's unable to use her effect (though with Charge/Solar/Reincarnation/Allure she can even get around that) she still mills 3, which is above average for a starting card, and if she dies... that's actually a good thing? It means you have a Lumina in the graveyard. The only thing better than a Lumina on the field is one in the graveyard because with an additional Lumina (easy to get if you run max) you can chain. Running her in favour of Shire/Jain is just a deck that mills a bit in the hopes of eventually nabbing one of your two Judgment dragons, having a random selection of cards in your discard, and replacing strategy with boring beatsticks that many decks could probably do better. Even if the spells speed that up... they shouldn't have to. When the deck works it should be milling them anyway, without their aid. This means high Lumina and JD counts! (and if you're gonna replace anything, replace Aurkus. He clashes really badly with Lumina. The only time he's ever run is if the opponent is known as having a deck that stops effects from targeting the graveyard.) Meanwhile, Shire is just not good. If you're maxing her it means she's not representing the real card well - or even at all. Seriously. She's not good. Bottom 3 of the set, above Rinyan. Also, with the effect you have... since it triggers when cards are milled, and that happens at upkeep... won't it only happen after you can attack with her? Which makes her a useless start? The only way a card mills before that is if you use Solar Recharge or Raiden's 2 - and even then, that's not her effect in reality. (+300 permanently for each different Lightsworn creature card in the graveyard.)


The main thing is, the deck plays like no other deck in Yugioh (drastically so!) and I don't expect it to play like any in MtG either. If you don't play to it's strengths you're best not using made up cards at all?
(pssst I thought you could only use one Realm of Light? Isn't it broken?)

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:19 pm

Okay, I see that the problem here is that you do not understand how MtG works.

1) Legendary: Any card that is legendary can only be once on your field, if you play a second one, you are forced to sacrifice the old one. That means that, yes, I can't have more then one Realm of Light on my field. But it is an awesome card that I need on my field as quickly as possible, that's why I run three. It also means that you can't have more then one JD or more then one Micheal at once.

2) JD costs mana. You don't get it for free and five mana is a lot. And even if I had one in my deck, I wouldn't mind getting him milled, cause I can get him back.

3) Out of my spells, only the charm is useless while in my graveyard. That is the thing you don't seem to grasp. MtG has lots of stuff that is awesome in your graveyard, so selfmill is NEVER EVER A DOWNSIDE
Lets look at them
Raven's Crime can be cast from your graveyard, if you discard a land as additional cost. As long as one is in your graveyard you can turn useless lands into a useful spell. However, in my 3.0 version, I got rid of it, I'll post thatversion in a sec.
Life from the Loam has Dredge 3. Whenever I would draw a card, I can instead put the top three cards from my library into my graveyard to return LftL from the graveyard to my hand. Lftl cost 2 mana and returns three lands from my graveyard to my hand. Now I will never have to worry about lands.
Ray of Revelution can destroy an enchantment and can be cast from the graveyard for one mana, but only once.

You claimed my deck wouldn't work consistently. It will. It's a white rush deck with mill shenanigans. Unless my enemy is running gravehate, there is little that can stop me. And, just to be clear, unlike in Yu-Gi-Oh!, gravehate is not uncommon in MtG. If my opponent uses some, I'll have to hope I can outspeed him.

That said, here is version 3

Light Rush 3.0:
CREATURES:

4× Shire
4× Raiden
4× Lumina
4× Jain
2× Ehren
2× Aurkus
2× Wulf
4× Jötun Grunt
3× Brawn
3× Valor
1× Glory
1× Genesis

SPELLS:

4× Life from the Loam
2× Vindicate

LANDS:

4× Temple Garden
4× Godless Shrine
4× Windswept Heath
3× Realm of Light
2× Marsh Flats
2× Plains
1× Emeria, Sky Ruin

SIDEBOARD:

2× Lyla
2× Aurkus
2× Raven's Crime
4× Ray of Revelution
2× Folk Medizine
2× Vindicate
1× Realm of Light

Right now I'm considering getting rid of Emeria and some of my lands, they are slowing me down I think. After all, nothing I want to cast costs more then three mana.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:35 pm

Hrrrrmmm. I did indeed have a look at the spells - but it's as I said, only ones that are really worth the space they take are worth bothering with over ones that aid consistency. Take Charm, for example: It may have multiple uses but Monster Reincarnation fits the deck better. I did like Dredge, that was pretty interesting - it's an essential added +3 to mill, right? And then the card goes back to the hand (possibly being discarded later via Lumina?). Definitely aids consistency. But Raven's Crime and Ray of Revelation... they're similar enough to Breakthrough Skill, particularly Ray: Except Breakthrough has no costs involved, stops "creature effects" instead of enchantments (which in Yugioh is better - Lyla, for example, can stop those) and I still only run one of them at most, (0 currently) since it doesn't aid consistency, it's just a so-so toolbox card. At least the Dredge thing is recursive, hell, you could get away with running just one of them. As for Vindicate, sure it's a generically great card, but... you're gonna mill it. Why bother when you could use the slot to get your creatures going? If I was gonna have anything in there it'd be something like Entomb/Charge of the Light Brigade/Solar Recharge because when you do get them, they're cheap and OH so worth it. 

But you're 3.0 deck is Lightsworn-flavoured as opposed to Lightsworn so I can't can't fault you there. Lightsworn flavoured decks are pretty common in MTG (Twilight, Lightsworn Ruler, Plantsworn, Zombiesworn, Lightsworn/Flamvell, Lighsworn Dragon Rulers... so so many variants, only some of which would run the staples.)

I would however argue that if Celestia's not being run once, or if Ryko or Lyla (who in YGO are actually viable outside of LS decks due to their effects) aren't represented at all, then they're not reflecting their respective realities properly. Might need tweaking. Lyla's the kind of creature you consider for about 0.02 of a second before saying "yeah she's a good card, gonna put 3 in". And the idea that Shire is usable is bizarre to me.


EDIT: I KNOW WHAT THIS IS ABOUT

the biggest problem here isn't the cards at all, or the formats!! We've done well to get this far but OF COURSE we're gonna have difficulty tuning the cards/decks because a) I haven't played MtG since I was about 11, and b) You've never experienced a Lightsworn deck! Durrrrrr this really should have been a known flaw from the get go :B Until we can somehow rectify these, I'm calling it a day with knowledge of a job well done.

Next week: Translating my Accelgor deck into Yugioh. And then from that into Pokemon.
(I considered doing it directly, but... My deck is just too weird.)
(also I'm kidding because that would be impossible. In Pokemon cards don't target and destroy/remove/banish anything. They just faint. Plus there's no spells???)

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:59 pm

I added Vindicate because Celestia costs more. One mana makes a lot of difference. And yes, Ryko isn't represented well because what he does would be unimaginable in MtG, at least for that cheap. Freaking Vindicate costs three mana and can't be revived and costs mana from two different colours. Rykos current effect is the best that can be done in MtG. And in a slower deck, he WOULD be pretty great.

Stopping creature effects is something rarely done in MtG and usually by blue. Black and white can do something similar but probably not what you have in mind.

Charge of the Lightbrigade sucks, at least the MtG version does. We could probably reduce the cost but it'd still mostly suck. Meanwhile, Vindicate is an emergency solution to things my deck can't solve by itself. And I don't care about milling it, I have Jötun Grunt for that.

Yeah, Shire is probably way too good right now, I have an idea that could work to nerf her because right now she's beating the shit out of everything in her way, especially if I have Valor in the graveyard.

You are probably right though, 4 LftL is probably overkill, two should be enough. Maybe I should add two Darkblast, hmmm...

I think I'll do version 4.0 but then I'll call it a day, too. It was lots of fun though, if you ever have some more cards for me to turn into MtG cards, let me know.

EDIT: The problem with spells is that in Yu-Gi-Oh! they are free and don't hinder your ability to play creatures, while in MtG they cost mana and if you spend your mana on a spell you can't spend that mana on a creature.

Also, here is my suggested fix for Shire

Spoiler:
(Shire)
Lightsworn Sprite
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Spirit
0/1
Common
Flying; Lightcycle 3; As long as you have a Lightsworn card in your graveyard, Lightsworn Sprite gets +1/+0.

And here is deck version 4.0

Light Rush 4.0:
CREATURES:

4× Shire
4× Raiden
4× Lumina
4× Jain
2× Ehren
2× Aurkus
2× Wulf
4× Jötun Grunt
3× Brawn
3× Valor
1× Glory
1× Genesis

SPELLS:

2× Life from the Loam
2× Vindicate
2× Darkblast

LANDS:

4× Temple Garden
4× Godless Shrine
4× Windswept Heath
4× Realm of Light
4× Marsh Flats

SIDEBOARD:

2× Lyla
2× Aurkus
2× Raven's Crime
4× Ray of Revelution
2× Folk Medizine
2× Vindicate
1× Emeria, Sky Ruin


Last edited by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:22 pm

OJ, how are you testing these???

(p.s. Charge is used for the mill, which is really cool early on and useful for the rest of the game, and to get that *one* card you really need e.g Lyla, Lumina or Raiden. Or Wulf maybe. I don't see what's the issue providing it's really cheap? (since it's LS specific it could be really cheap and not be a problem) And Monster Re. as well as Entomb (or similar) are also pretty important. The combos they can pull with Lumina are insane.

You know, since Celestia's problem is that in reality she requires a tribute, you could make her a synchro too? She's not a Synchro, but the way we've done it makes it pretty similar to how she would be summoned. That might make her and her effect usable (and the beatstick-ness and mill are admittedly good providing you can summon her). And as for Shire... just make her effect be "for each DIFFERENT lightsworn in the grave" and the mechanics will take care of themselves. If you're still worried about her being too strong late game then make it "for each /two/ different" "gains +2/+0" which is the same overall but means every second new creature in the grave has no effect.


aaaaanway I'm gonna continue getting medals on the Game Boy game and maybe solitaire my way through the first two turns a few times with Lumina and Raiden. You know, I don't regret my purchase at all Very Happy

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:38 pm

I'm mostly testing them the way I test everything, comparing it to existing stuff and running scenarios in my head.

That said, with the effect you suggested she'd beat even more face then she did with the one I gave her, but I posted a fix for her in my edit that you ninja'd

In it I also explain the problem with Charge.

Entomb is better for real Reanimator decks, with all that mill you'll get the cards into your graveyard fairly quickly anyways.

Also, that isn't Celestias problem at all, her problem is that we boosted her cost so that Lumina can't revive her but can revive Wulf without needing to nerf Wulf. There are three solutions for this:
1) Reduce Luminas effect again and reduce Celestias cost. Result: Lumina won't be able to summon Wulf (my favourite)
2) Reduce Luminas effect again and reduce Celestias and Wulfs cost and make Wulf weaker. Result: Wulf will be weak, nearly useless and easily summonable by casting him.
3) Reduce Luminas effect again, reduce Celestias cost and remove Wulfs cost. Result: Wulf will be too big a risk to use most likely. I suppose this might work but I kind of doubt it.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:12 pm

Can't we make Charge a free spell? It has its own cost built in anyway.

I like Wulf as it is, it seems pretty cool. But if Celestia was a synchro, that would make her technically easier to summon while still being higher than Wulf (and would make the tuners a bit more useful. Imagine using Raiden's effect after being summoned by Lumina only to summon a quick Celestia and mini-nuking the field Smile just once of course. And you can make the cost pretty high if she's a Synchro.


The most accurate representation of Shire would be "for each two different LS creature in the graveyard, Shire gains +1/0." This means she realistically maxes out at 4, or 5 if you make her a 1/0. And with a bare minimum JD requirement she'll be at 2 or 3, which is... Pretty accurate really.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:40 pm

That would make her pretty great though, you are aware of that, yes?

Turning Celestia into a Synchro could work but it would still make her kind of useless, because now she'd be totally useless without a tuner, she would cost you two of your creatures and giving her a double Vindicate would mean she'd have to cost a lot of mana even IF she's synchro summoned. She'd have to cost at least 8 mana without synchro summoning, probably rather 9...

And no, making Charge free can't be done, because the "cost" is a benefit. A lot of people would play a spell that costs nothing and allows them to mill three cards. They won't even care about the supposed effect. No, reducing it to less then one can't be done and one mana is too much for Rush and too cheap in anything else. Honestly, the best that could be done is reduce the cost to two and only use it in a slower deck.

EDIT: Actually, your idea for Shire is good. She'll be less useful in the first turns and much worse in the deck I was using

EDIT 2: Okay, so, what do you think of these:
Spoiler:
(Shire)
Lightsworn Sprite
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Spirit
0/1
Common
Flying; Lightcycle 3; Lightsworn Sprite gets +1/+0 for each two Lightsworn creatures with different names in your graveyard.

(Celestia)
Angel of the Guiding Light
Cost:1BW
Creature- Lightsworn Angel
3/2
Rare
Kicker: Sacrifice a Lightsworn Creature and put the top five cards from your library into your graveyard; Flying; When Angel of the Guiding Light enters the battlefield, if you paid the kicker cost, destroy target permanent.

(Lumina)
Lightsworn Spiritcaller
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Human Shaman
1/1
Uncommon
Lightcycle 3; 1B, discard a card: Return target Lightsworn creature with converted mana cost of 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. You can only use this effect once per turn and only when you could cast a sorcery.

(Wulf)
Oathbound Beast
Cost:/
Creature - Lightsworn Wolf Warrior
3/3
Common
(Oathbound Beast is white and green)
When Oathbound Beast is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it onto the battlefield.

Charge of the Light Brigade
Cost:1W
Sorcery
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Charge of the Light Brigade, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.
Search your library for a Lightsworn creature card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

Shire is now even worse as a turn 1 drop then she was before, Wulf is now useless by himself and Lumina can now nolonger do dangerous Changeling shenanigans. Wulf can still be summoned by Lumina though. Celestia now is awesome, she got a decent body and can act like a Lightsworn only Vindicate in an emergency. Very powerful. Lastly, Charge now costs two mana, which makes it a bit better.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:56 pm

Hmmmm. Seems really decent actually. Celestia in particular is wonderfully tool-boxy. How does Wulf's cost work, exactly?

Also, since you'd know better than I would, do you think Judgement is strong enough? Nuking is powerful but 5 doesn't seem like a lot. It doesn't even get boosted by Realm of Light (because of his non-lightsworn status) and being a Legendary creature fits his flavour but not in practice.

Although since you can have Michael and JD on the field at the same time, and Michael is "dragon" and happens to be riding Judgement dragon in his art, you could guess that there are actually multiple Judgement Dragons in the realm of light. That would make JD not legendary, merely a really really powerful pet/weapon. Michael would be Legendary though. On that note: is he strong enough?

And is Realm of Light balanced? The original had a thing that on bring destroyed, it could remove two counters and not be destroyed instead. Useful when JD nukes... Though not since he doesn't affect Lands. Is there a way to categorise all non-basic lands? What if he destroyed those? Too strong I suppose. It sure is nice that we're at a stage where we can be picky about these things.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:24 pm

5 Power is a lot in any colour but green. White rarely gets creatures with more then 5 power. Blue gets them sometimes, but they usually cost a lot and/or have huge downsides. Demons can get stronger then that but they always come at a price. Red dragons can rarely be stronger but many can temporaly boost their power but that's expensive. Really, 5/4 for 5 is quite a lot. And being able to whipe the field is an awesome effect.
I suppose JD doesn't have to be a legend, because summoning more then one in one turn doesn't work (unless you happen to have 10 mana) and they would destroy eachother if you used their effect...
I'll have to think about it.
Realm of light is balanced. Land destruction is rare, so the protection isn't needed. Entering tapped slows down your summoning but at the same time, it's effect takes a bit to get crazy, so you want to play it pretty early. All in all, it got a couple downsides but can easily get really crazy with a bit of time.

Wulfs cost works like this: Since he has no cost, you can't cast him. His CMC is 0, since he has no cost. 0 is 2 or less so Lumina can summon him.

Thinking about what you said, I am also considering some changes.
A 3/1 for two mana is decent in white, so I'll up Lylas and Ehrens power. To make Jain look less aweful compared to that, he'll get First Strike, making him much better. What do you think?

EDIT: Just for fun, I decided to count the number of mono white creatures with more then 5 power. Unless I misscounted, there are 13. In all of MtG, there are only 13 mono white creatures with more then 5 power. And only five have a power above 6.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Sat Jul 12, 2014 6:51 am

Yep! No, that sounds pretty good. I like your Judgement Dragon rationale. You know, with enough play testing, this is the kind of thing that would draw in Yugioh players to MtG (since MtG is widely known to be the better game. Not saying YuGiOh and Pokemon srrn't fun, though, I think saying which one is more fun is entirely subjective). Everybody in Yugioh knows (and occasinally fears?) Lightsworns.

Quick thing: two judgement dragons on the field isn't a bad thing; why would you use the second one's effect when the field is already empty? And later in the game, you still have access to those two, and if you do nuke worst case scenario is one again. How recoverable from a nuke are most decks? In Yugioh, "devastation" is appropriate, because any planned strategy goes out the window, but a turn is often enough for most tier one decks to set up again (in the same way a Lightsworn one can late game by playing a Lumina or JD) and retaliate, so it's only a death sentence against poor or unlucky decks.


There is no way our collective word counts aren't the highest on this forum. Our post counts already are :/

Edit: hey OJ can we get a collective list of all the updated cards? It's getting annoying to move back and forth on the pages.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:32 am

Sure, I'll make that list in a sec. As for recovering from nukes, it depends on the deck. Rush decks usually kill the opponent before they get a chance to nuke but IF they nuke, they are usually in trouble because they've run out of cards. Midrange decks usually run ways to recover from nukes, because, as I said, they aren't that uncommon. Slow decks usually don't mind nukes, because they don't have much on the field most of the time. Nukes that destroy lands are incredibly devasting and usually so expensive that they aren't worth it most of the time. It also depends on the format. EDH for example is pretty dang slow and played with multiple players, at least 3 but often more. Rule of thumb there is to expect a nuke every three turns.

And yeah, two JDs isn't bad but the most scary part of JD is the fact that he can nuke the field repeatedly and survive himself, so even if you play a strong creature to protect yourself, he can just nuke everything again. So having a second JD will certainly not be bad, but it will not be twice as good as one JD.
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Sat Jul 12, 2014 7:45 am

Keywords:
Lightcycle X (At the beginning of your upkeep, put the top X cards from your library into your graveyard)

Tuner X (When you cast a creature with Synchro, you can sacrifice this creature and another creature you control to reduce the casting cost of that creature by X and the mana cost of the other creature you sacrificed. You can only use one Tuner effect per Synchro creature you cast.)

Synchro (When you cast this card, you can sacrifice one creature with Turner and one other creature as additional cost to reduce this cards casting cost.)

Lightsworn Cards:
(Raiden)
Hand of Light
Cost: W
Creatur - Lightsworn Human Soldier
1/1
Uncommon
Put the top two cards from your library into your Graveyard: If you have put at least one Lightsworn card into your graveyard via this effect, Hand of Light gets +1/+0 untill your next upkeep phase. You can only activate this effect once per turn and only any time you could cast a sorcery. Lightcycle 3; Tuner 1W

Michael, Arch-Lightsworn
Cost:4WWW
Legendary Creature - Lightsworn Dragon
4/3
Mythic Rare
Synchro; Lightcycle 5
WW, pay 5 life: Exile target permanent.
If Michael dies, shuffle any number of Lightsworn cards from your graveyard into your library. You gain 1 life for each card you shuffled into your library that way.

(Minerva)
Lightsworn Maiden
Cost: W
Creatur - Lightsworn Human
1/1
Common
When Lightsworn Maiden enters the battlefield, if you have casted her from your hand, search your library for one card named "Judgement Dragon" if you have at least 7 different Lightsworn creatures in your graveyard. Lightcycle 2; Tuner W
When Lightsworn Maiden is put into your graveyard from your library, put the top card of your library into your graveyard.

(Shire)
Lightsworn Sprite
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Spirit
0/1
Common
Flying; Lightcycle 3; Lightsworn Sprite gets +1/+0 for each two Lightsworn creatures with different names in your graveyard.

(Celestia)
Angel of the Guiding Light
Cost:1BW
Creature- Lightsworn Angel
3/2
Rare
Kicker: Sacrifice a Lightsworn Creature and put the top five cards from your library into your graveyard; Flying; When Angel of the Guiding Light enters the battlefield, if you paid the kicker cost, destroy target permanent.

(Lumina)
Lightsworn Spiritcaller
Cost:W
Creature - Lightsworn Human Shaman
1/1
Uncommon
Lightcycle 3; 1B, discard a card: Return target Lightsworn creature with converted mana cost of 2 or less from your graveyard to the battlefield. You can only use this effect once per turn and only when you could cast a sorcery.

(Wulf)
Oathbound Beast
Cost:/
Creature - Lightsworn Wolf Warrior
3/3
Common
(Oathbound Beast is white and green)
When Oathbound Beast is put into your graveyard from your library, you may put it onto the battlefield.

Charge of the Light Brigade
Cost:1W
Sorcery
Uncommon
As an additional cost to play Charge of the Light Brigade, put the top three cards of your library into your graveyard.
Search your library for a Lightsworn creature card and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library.

(Garoth)
Lightsworn Warrior
Cost:2WW
Creature - Lightsworn Human Warrior
3/2
Uncommon
Whenever you put one or more cards from the top of your library into the graveyard, put two additional cards from the top of your library into the graveyard. At the end of your turn, if at least one Lightsworn card has been put into the graveyard from your library this turn, draw a card.

(Ehren)
Lightsworn Monk
Cost:WW
Creature - Lightsworn Human Monk
3/1
Uncommon
Lightcycle 4; When a creature blocks Lightsworn Monk, shuffle that creature into its owners library at the end of combat

(Jain)
Palladin of the Lightsworn
Cost:1W
Creature - Lightsworn Human Knight
2/2
Common
First Strike; Lightcycle 3; Palladin of the Lightsworn gets +1/+0 while attacking

(Lyla)
Lightsworn Mage
Cost:1W
Creature - Lightsworn Human Wizard
3/1
Common
Lightcycle 3; W, T: Destroy target Entchantment

(Ryko)
Hunting Dog of the Light
Cost:1W
Creature - Lightsworn Hound
0/1
Uncommon
W, T, Sacrifice Hunting Dog of the Light : Destroy target attacking creature, then put the top three cards from your library into your graveyard

Judgement Dragon
Cost:2WWW
Legendary Creature - Dragon
5/4
Mythic Rare
When Judgement Dragon enters the battlefield, sacrifice it unless you have four Lightsworn creature cards with different names in your graveyard. Flying; Lightcycle 6; 1WW, pay 5 life: Destroy all other creatures.

(Aurkus)
Lightsworn Druid
Cost:WG
Creature -Lightsworn Human Druid
2/2
Common
Lightcycle 3; All Lightsworn creatures you control have shroud.

(Gragonith)
Dragon of the Golden Light
Cost:2WG
Creature - Lightsworn Dragon
3/3
Rare
Flying; Trample; Lightcycle 5; Dragon of the Golden Light gets +1/+0 for each Lightsworn creature card in your graveyard

(Jenis)
Lightsworn Mender
Cost:BW
Creature - Lightsworn Human Cleric
0/4
Common
Whenever a Lightsworn creature card is put into your graveyard from your library, target opponents lose 1 life and you gain 1 life.

(Rinyan)
Lightsworn Trickster
Cost:1W
Creature - Lightsworn Cat
1/1
Common
When this creatur enters the battlefield, you may put target Lightsworn creatur card from your graveyard under your library. If you do, draw a card.

Realm of Light
Legendary Land
Rare
Realm of Light enters the battlefield tapped; At the end of your turn, if at least one Lightsworn card has been put into your graveyard from your library, put a light counter on Realm of Light. As long as Realm of Light is untapped, Lightsworn creatures you control get +1/+0 for each light counter on this card. T: Add W to your mana pool.

Other Cards:
(Necro Gardna)
Undead Guardian
Cost: 1B
Creatur - Zombie Soldier
0/2
Uncommon
W, exile Undead Guardian: Prevent all damage dealt by target creature this turn. Use this effect only if Undead Guardian is in your graveyard.

Plaguespreader Zombie
Cost:BB
Creature - Zombie
0/1
Uncommon
Turner 1; Unearth put a card from your hand at the top of your library

I hope I didn't miss anything
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:11 pm

Hey, D, why don't you give me a list of commonly used spells and traps from Lightsworn and I'll try to turn them into MtG cards?

Come on, I'm ready!
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:20 pm

Hey, I'm a little stuck with my EDH deck, would anybody help me decide which of these cards I should remove? My deck should probably not have more then 65 nonland cards, I think.

Current List:
Hydra Broodmaster
Avatar of Woe
Deadbridge Goliath
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Experiment Kraj
Corpsejack Menace
Æthersnipe
Damia, Sage of Stone
Brawn
Renegade Krasis
Shrikemaw
Korozda Gorgon
Zameck Guildmage
Sage of Fables
Lorescale Coatl
Wonder
Mulldrifter
Lotleth Troll
Vorel of the Hull Clade
Gilder Bairn
Magus of the Candelabra
Gyre Sage
Experiment One
Slitherhead
Orochi Leafcaller
Sage of Hours
Thrummingbird
Skullbriar, the Walking Grave
Fatom Mage
Triskelavus
Drift of Phantasms
Devoted Druid
Simic Manipulator
Simic Initiate
Fertilid
Vigean Graftmage
Spikefeeder
Mortivore
Heroes' Bane
The Mimeoplasm
Sol Ring
Life // Death
Burst of Strength
Bioshift
Lightning Greaves
Life from the Loam
Solidarity of Heroes
Fate Transfer
Shred Memory
Ordeal of Nylea
Stitch Together
Muddle the Mixture
Strength of the Tajuru
Oblivion Stone
Darksteel Ingot
Shielding Plax
Give // Take
Putrefy
Dismember
Spell Crumple
Gaze of Granite
Fact or Fiction
Tezzeret's Gambit
Ooze Flux
Vigor Mortis
Whip of Erebos
Fuel for the Cause
Increasing Savagery
Doubling Season
Fool's Demise
Grave Betrayal

I am also considering getting a Simic Guildmage, Elvish Aberration and Kalonian Hydra
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Aug 11, 2014 2:23 pm

Yes. All of those. Definitely they should all go.

And you should replace them with, umm, with,,

A... Swamp? Wolf. Yes. Swamp wolf. Max out Swamp wolf. And, uhh, some other cards.

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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by OverlordJ on Mon Aug 11, 2014 3:27 pm

Sadly, in EDH, you can use each card only once, so I couldn't replace them all with swamp wolfs even if that was a card that existed.

But hey, while you're here, want to turn some more cards into MtG cards?
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Re: The TCG Corner

Post by d_what on Mon Aug 11, 2014 4:13 pm

Oh sorry! I didn't see that post, it was really coincidence (well, statistics) that I was here in the first place. That's what you get for double posting OJ Razz

There aren't really a lot of Spells/Traps that LS uses, since they mill most of the deck and in Yugioh there's very few cards that make use of grave'd non-monster cards, and you end up with a null mill and a card you can't use. Some are worth the effort, though, but I think first you have to decide how to represent traps. Traps are played face down and can be activated only when your turn ends, after something triggers them (Something being anything as simple as a phase change). So I dunno how that work would, especially given their air of mystery (and, to be frank, absolute terror in the knowledge that your best laid plan may be completely futile). If face-down isn't a thing in MTG (and if it's rare, then the opponent is gonna immediately suss out that it's one of your traps) then perhaps they can be played directly from the hand during your opponents turn? Both Yugioh and Pokemon have some cards that do that, if MtG did that would be close. Spells shouldn't be a problem but there's honestly not a lot of them? 


Traps: Breakthrough Skill (negates an opponent's monster's effect. After that, if it's in the graveyard, you can activate it /during your turn/ to negate an opponent's monster's effect again, but the catch is ONLY during your turn. Decent card to be milled though.)

Beckoning Light (discard your entire hand, then add as many Light attribute monsters to your hand from your graveyard as you discarded. Can't activate it unless you can add all of those Light cards though; dumping them THEN adding them back won't work. I run 1-2 but it's probably overkill with Monster Reincarnation.



Spells:  Monster Reincarnation (Discard a card, add a Monster card from the graveyard to your hand.) I run 3! You get some neat plays with this. Discarding a Necro Gardna/Plaguespreader/Lumina (for Lumina chains)/Minerva (for +1 mill) in exchange for a JD/Lumina (if you don't already have one)/Other Important Card is often really really important. Especially early game, when if you don't have an LS already in the graveyard you can't activate Lumina's effect. But also late game!

Beckoning Light (discard a LS monster, draw 2 cards, mill 2 cards) a 3-off, but I think you said this would be broken in MtG. It's pretty OP as is, but as I said Spells typically get milled so I don't get to use it often.

Charge of the Light Brigade (Limited to 1 now) Mill 3, then add a level 4 or lower (anything smaller than Celestia, so Wulf and below) LS monster to your hand. Honestly the mill is about as useful as the +1 LS card.

There's also Foolish Burial, I think we've discussed that and there's already an equivalent, and I suppose Allure of Darkness but honestly I don't like it. The draw is never worth banishing a Necro Gardna and it's inconsistent.

My deck on YGOPRO is below. My real one is... not as expensive lol! Although it's quite similar, except for the Extra Deck. My Extra Deck is VASTLY inferior but then the Extra Deck in Yugioh is always the most problematic part of a real deck since most of the cards will be really powerful, really rare staples.

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Re: The TCG Corner

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