Teambuilding and Advice

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Fri Nov 29, 2013 4:42 pm

Edit that isn't an edit because I've nothing to edit yet: sorry Drega if I came off as rude, I was serious about you being ironic, the last pokemon thing kinda threw me. In my head I was comparing it to choice scarf magikarp for the pointless speed increase. In my defense I feel I have to stay on my toes around your posts lest I fall for another "infraction!" gag again :B

Flying types as a rule are easily dealt with; steel types cover a lot of ground. Your issues there are mainly with the flying type users (or similar) who can bypass this: Volcarona, either Charizard, Thundurus, Zapdos? Talonflame, debatably Dragonite; Skarmory is a huge concern but for different reasons. For the record, stone edge < stealth rock. Team needs stealth rock and there's a lot of options there given the Pokemon choice. In addition, assuming this is for sixth gen, since sand only lasts for 5 turns, 8 MAX, there's even LESS of a reason to worry about sand-immune Pokemon. Starmie fits in well anywhere, as does Rotom-W. (Who are both excellent checks to threats, can use recovery, encourage smart switching and are prominent special attackers to boot. Highly recommended. AND they can take down those aforementioned flying types/users easily!)

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:14 pm

First off, for the record, this was like a first draft of the team, and I've never attempted a weather team before. And besides, it's even my second attempt at a competitive team altogether.

And now that those petty excuses reasonable caveats are out of the way, it's time for that grand old tradition of replying to way too many people.

d_what wrote:Too many ground types dude :/ you'll be swept by any setup sweeper with an SE move. A weather team doesn't have to be 100% immune from the weather in question.

And anyway if that's what you want you could throw in Mandibuzz, Reuniclus or Alakazam.

NO WAIT
I have determined that the team is an ironic one done for the lulz
There's no way anyone would have Focus Sash on a Donphan. Or Gunk Shot over rapid spin...or so many physical attackers.
Are you feeling OK?? High temperature perhaps???
Oh shush, you >:/

My original idea with Donphan was something that'd be a prime target for high-powered moves, take a crazy hard hit, survive with Focus Sash, use Endeavor, then Ice Shard on the next turn. How many of you would have predicted that?

Hey, I never said it was a good strategy. The truth is that Donphan has so many awesome moves in its movepool that I got lost and started choosing ones that I thought were the coolest. I mean really, why would it ever learn Seed Bomb, Gunk Shot, Superpower, Gyro Ball, Sunny Day, Bounce, Round, Confide, or Fissure? It's a freaking elephant!

OverlordJ wrote:You could also add Sigilyph. I personally quite like Sigilyph.
Sigilyph's fun. I feel like when I trained it in Black I didn't access its full potential. It had a moveset of Light Screen, Reflect, Psychic, and Fly, and it held a Sharp Beak. Its only real worth was when it was fast enough (and it was damn fast) to set up a screen, then do some damage from behind it. I was able to demolish Marshal of the Elite Four despite every one of his Pokemon knowing Stone Edge using this technique.

Xaber wrote:
Dregadude wrote:
snip
Not sure about Sandstorm and Smooth Rock. You're probably better off just leaving Sandstorm to Smooth Rock Tyranitar or something. If you're running Sand Rush, you may want to run a few Speed evs just to reach particular markers. I'd say just grab another attacking move and stick Life Orb or Leftovers on it.

Well, I had to put it on something, and since Tyranitar's role is Mega demolition, I couldn't give it a Smooth Rock, nice as that would have been. By the way, that Sand Stream/Drought/Drizzle/Snow Warning nerf that happened this gen really irks me. Sure makes a Sandstorm team more complicated.

snop

You might want to consider U-turn here over Fire Blast or Stone Edge, as it's nice for scouting and is one of the main reasons to use Flygon over Garchomp.

That's probably a good idea. This Flygon is a carbon copy of the one that I have in my other team, so I guess I'll change that one too. I think I'll replace Stone Edge.

snoop

Are the Speed evs designed to hit any particular benchmark? You might want to have a look at some Speed tiers to decide if there's anything you particularly want Gliscor to outspeed.

oh god dude you're breaking my mind, they have tiers for every stat for every Pokemon??? I just wanted it to be a little faster than normal, and also since I'm indecisive when it comes to EVs. And anyways, the only idea with Gliscor being in my team was "what other ground/rock/steel types do I like that I can throw in here?" "ooh how about poison heal gliscor I fuckin' hate that thing, that'll be fun" Tbh this whole team sort of turned into a "ground/steel/rock types I like" team. Not that that's a bad thing, it's just the mindset I kind of fell into while building a team that ostensibly should have been focused more on the weather.

snap?!

Not sure about the Speed investment here, as Metagross is usually a better tank than sweeper, especially considering Hammer Arm. If you want a cleaner of some sort, perhaps replace Bullet Punch with Agility? Otherwise, just stick the Speed evs in HP and maybe put Earthquake there somewhere, as it's great coverage. I'm also not convinced about the item; perhaps Leftovers or a Choice Band would be a better fit for a tank?

Metagross here is also a carbon copy of the one from my other team, with the addition of Bullet Punch. Metagross's biggest problem is being able to get a shot off when facing a Fire or Dark type, since it easily gets one-shotted by a good special Fire or Dark type move instead of laying down some serious damage with Earthquake or Hammer Arm. I replaced Earthquake with Bullet Punch to that end as well. It's a shame Zen Headbutt does so little damage, relative to Metagross's other moves. Also, in practice, Rocky Helmet actually catches a lot of people off guard, especially when it's used to take Fighting type hits, and I don't think there's been a situation where it could have been saved by Leftovers.

sneep

I would suggest replacing Tyranitarite with a Smooth Rock to increase Sandstorm duration, since you don't have any other setters (besides Excadrill, which probably has better things to do). Maybe try and fit Stealth Rock on there as well? It's always nice to have it on something.

That was the plan going in but I realized I didn't have a Mega on the team, and I kind of need one to survive. I guess I'll change this.

snyyp of the occult

Firstly, Focus Sash is unnecessary on Donphan, as d_what has said. Gunk Shot is also a bit strange. I'd say that Mamoswine does this set a lot better if you give it a Focus Sash, since it's stronger and gets STAB on Ice Shard. Donphan's main advantage over Mamoswine is Rapid Spin, but you're already using that on Excadrill.

Donphan's already been explained. And I didn't feel right having Rapid Spin on two Pokemon.
Overall, this team seems to be mostly bulky sand offense. You do have a few too many physical attackers; while having lots isn't bad, right now the only thing that stands a chance at beating Skarmory is Flygon. Not everything needs to be immune to Sandstorm to be used, although generally you want Pokemon with Leftovers to offset weather damage. I'd suggest some bulky special attackers (Reuniclus is a good one, and it's immune to sandstorm) replacing some of your superfluous physical attackers (Donphan and Gliscor are a bit meh right now). If you're using this team on a simulator (I assume you are) then Terrakion and Landorus are both excellent Pokemon in sand (as long as you don't mind using legendaries).

hehehe christmas colors
d_what wrote:Edit that isn't an edit because I've nothing to edit yet: sorry Drega if I came off as rude, I was serious about you being ironic, the last pokemon thing kinda threw me. In my head I was comparing it to choice scarf magikarp for the pointless speed increase. In my defense I feel I have to stay on my toes around your posts lest I fall for another "infraction!" gag again :B
Oh wow, I didn't mean to scar you with that or anything. Sorry! That's just what I get for being such an elaborate prankster.

d_what wrote:Flying types as a rule are easily dealt with; steel types cover a lot of ground. Your issues there are mainly with the flying type users (or similar) who can bypass this: Volcarona, either Charizard, Thundurus, Zapdos? Talonflame, debatably Dragonite; Skarmory is a huge concern but for different reasons. For the record, stone edge < stealth rock. Team needs stealth rock and there's a lot of options there given the Pokemon choice. In addition, assuming this is for sixth gen, since sand only lasts for 5 turns, 8 MAX, there's even LESS of a reason to worry about sand-immune Pokemon. Starmie fits in well anywhere, as does Rotom-W. (Who are both excellent checks to threats, can use recovery, encourage smart switching and are prominent special attackers to boot. Highly recommended. AND they can take down those aforementioned flying types/users easily!)
Rotom-W is a very good idea, but I have another one. What if I replaced Metagross/Donphan with a MAlakazam which would have EVs in HP and SpA, a Modest nature, and a moveset of Psychic, Focus Blast, Charge Beam, and Calm Mind or Energy Ball? That would fulfill my lack of a mega, as well as need of a special attacker which can get rid of fighting and flying types.

My revised team:
Spoiler:
Morte (Excadrill) (F) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Rush
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Brick Break

Trianna (Flygon) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Superpower
- U-turn

Vriska (Gliscor) (F) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 128 SDef
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Toxic
- Ice Fang

Panzer (Metagross) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Light Metal
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Meteor Mash
- Hammer Arm
- Earthquake

Jaxton (Tyranitar) (M) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Superpower

phanDex (Donphan) (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Ice Shard
- Seed Bomb
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Just for fun, the fourth version of my original Black 2 team, which has gone through 3 switches but somehow is still masquerading as a fifth gen team:
Spoiler:
Trianna (Flygon) (F) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Gentle Nature
- Earthquake
- Dragon Claw
- Fire Blast
- Stone Edge

Amiti (Azumarill) (M) @ Wacan Berry
Ability: Huge Power
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Jolly Nature
- Play Rough
- Aqua Tail
- Superpower
- Aqua Jet

Morte (Excadrill) (F) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Rush
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Iron Head
- Rapid Spin
- Sandstorm

Willie (Malamar) (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Impish Nature
- Night Slash
- Superpower
- Rock Slide
- Psycho Cut

Elaine (Ampharos) (F) @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Static
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Heal Bell
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast

Bubbles (Charizard) (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Dragon Pulse

tl;dr: "Tbh this whole team sort of turned into a "ground/steel/rock types I like" team. Not that that's a bad thing, it's just the mindset I kind of fell into while building a team that ostensibly should have been focused more on the weather." "What if I replaced Metagross/Donphan with a MAlakazam?"
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by phantasmalDexterity on Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:24 pm

Dregadude wrote:My original idea with Donphan was something that'd be a prime target for high-powered moves, take a crazy hard hit, survive with Focus Sash, use Endeavor, then Ice Shard on the next turn. How many of you would have predicted that?
Drega, dude. Buddy. The reason they say you shouldn't have Focus Sash on Donphan is because it's completely superfluous with Sturdy. It does the same thing.

Otherwise it looks good imo?

Also, kudos for the name.

Wait. Does that mean that Donphan[weed]Drega is a valid ship?
//gotta name one of my new team members Drega just for the sake of shipping

I'm so torn.
I have a pokemon, who can learn Stealth Rock through breeding. The one I currently have doesn't know it. But it's shiny with very good IVs. What to do.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Fri Nov 29, 2013 9:32 pm

I HAD AN IDEA

Bear with me

Prankster klefki with dual screens
You DID say you liked fast screens right??
Okay back to the usual.

Malakazam isn't actually a terrible mega, it fills basically the exact same role as old Alakazam did back in gen 4, before power creep was a thing. But for the purposes of our discussion, it's not suited to your team: megaAlakazam likes a lot of support and it's NOT immune to sandstorm. Alakazam isn't a special wall either, it's made to sweep/clean up. I would still highly reccomend any of the other guys we've spoken about, emphasising RotomW really because it's an absolute boss. Remember that it's weak to Grass though :/ So is Starmie, but starmie brings Ice moves AND a fighting resistance to the table! Specs/Scarf perhaps?

I think you've a significant weakness to a lot of the physical walls and water types this gen - you handle Talonflame well but Greninja and Aegislash are going to do something with you that is probably better done by a bidet. Special fire moves are nice to have, Fire Blast is great because it can fit on a lot of Pokemon without much/any Sp.Atk investment. And setup Grass/Ice/Water types are a major concern too. Dragon solves two of those things but is weak to ice... Basically I think while all the individual guys are good Pokemon by themselves, we're lacking diversity and you've opened yourself up to a lot of different threats. Variety is good in Pokemon!

(If gelatino asks I wasn't here and certainly didn't reference his mono-ghost team)

(Shhhhhh)

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Fri Nov 29, 2013 10:28 pm

phantasmalDexterity wrote:
Dregadude wrote:My original idea with Donphan was something that'd be a prime target for high-powered moves, take a crazy hard hit, survive with Focus Sash, use Endeavor, then Ice Shard on the next turn. How many of you would have predicted that?
Drega, dude. Buddy. The reason they say you shouldn't have Focus Sash on Donphan is because it's completely superfluous with Sturdy. It does the same thing.

Otherwise it looks good imo?
Oh my god I don't know how I didn't catch myself. Sorry for that embarrassing display, I honestly should have known better. :notevenmspa: :iamsodumb:

phantasmalDexterity wrote:Also, kudos for the name.

Wait. Does that mean that Donphan[weed]Drega is a valid ship?
//gotta name one of my new team members Drega just for the sake of shipping
Hehehe. It fits so well.

d_what wrote:I HAD AN IDEA

Bear with me

Prankster klefki with dual screens
You DID say you liked fast screens right??
Okay back to the usual.
whooooooa that's really nifty and really clever

My only problem with Klefki is that it's really obviously a leader Pokemon, so whenever I see it in my opponent's party I immediately send in anything with a Fire type move.

d_what wrote:Malakazam isn't actually a terrible mega, it fills basically the exact same role as old Alakazam did back in gen 4, before power creep was a thing. But for the purposes of our discussion, it's not suited to your team: megaAlakazam likes a lot of support and it's NOT immune to sandstorm. Alakazam isn't a special wall either, it's made to sweep/clean up. I would still highly reccomend any of the other guys we've spoken about, emphasising RotomW really because it's an absolute boss. Remember that it's weak to Grass though :/ So is Starmie, but starmie brings Ice moves AND a fighting resistance to the table! Specs/Scarf perhaps?

I think you've a significant weakness to a lot of the physical walls and water types this gen - you handle Talonflame well but Greninja and Aegislash are going to do something with you that is probably better done by a bidet. Special fire moves are nice to have, Fire Blast is great because it can fit on a lot of Pokemon without much/any Sp.Atk investment. And setup Grass/Ice/Water types are a major concern too. Dragon solves two of those things but is weak to ice... Basically I think while all the individual guys are good Pokemon by themselves, we're lacking diversity and you've opened yourself up to a lot of different threats. Variety is good in Pokemon!

(If gelatino asks I wasn't here and certainly didn't reference his mono-ghost team)

(Shhhhhh)
But then I still don't have a mega, and I really need a mega. :c

am i doing this Rotom-W right:
BIG LAUNDRY (Rotom-Wash) @ Rindo Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Discharge
- Hydro Pump
- Will-O-Wisp
- Signal Beam/Volt Switch, not sure which

For miscellaneous consideration, some Pokemon that I considered that didn't make the cut were Hippowdon (Sand Stream, duh), Lucario, and Bastiodon (which can learn Fire Blast, Thunder, and Blizzard, because someone was smoking a little too hard at Pokemon HQ).


Last edited by Dregadude on Sat Nov 30, 2013 12:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Gelatino on Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:53 pm

i see a lot of people running volt switch on their rotom-w.  that can be useful since it outspeeds basically everything with choice scarf

also dwhat, my ghost team works and i only get swept by set-up hydreigon with dark pulse occasionally

speaking of my ghost team, i'm gonna try swapping my froslass lead with sableye and see how it works out
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:54 am

Hey what are you talking about Gelatino I am absolutely certain I made no reference to your ghost team mspa

Anyway, I wouldn't bother with Signal Beam or Rindo Berry. You can't rely on grass type switch-ins, grass types aren't even too common and generally Rotom falls to repeated neutral hits, especially offensive ones, which is what yours is. Note: offensive Rotom is not really very bulky, that's important to remember. You can't reliably use it to check physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp very often. In addition, Discharge is better for the high paralysis rate but it conflicts with will-o-wisp. If you want to go offensive, I'd replace Discharge with thunderbolt. Also, when Bank comes out, consider scarf/specs + trick. It absolutely neuters walls and if you can take out ground types, volt switch is highly spammable.

As for Klefki, fire attacks are common enough to warrant using an Occa berry, and don't forget if they go offensive you can set up a quick screen to halve the damage. Not a good idea on mixed sweepers though; they can still likely 2HKO and you'll need to switch, then they can attack on the side with out the screen. Also your team is FULL of fire resists, you're not losing out on any synergy there. What Klefki really needs is a set-up sweeper buddy that likes the protection turns... Preferably one that resists or take a advantage of fire or ground type moves.
And just for reference: you or anybody else don't "need" a mega. That way of thinking arises from the idea that you need a mega to counter a mega. And it practice, that's a load of bull! What you actually need is a way to counter/check all the big megas, so we can look at that later.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by NinteNerd on Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:59 pm

d_what wrote:And just for reference: you or anybody else don't "need" a mega. That way of thinking arises from the idea that you need a mega to counter a mega. And it practice, that's a load of bull! What you actually need is a way to counter/check all the big megas, so we can look at that later.
you know know what's funny?
the purpose of megas is to elevate normal pokemon to the power of legendaries.
and you're here saying they can be countered perfectly fine with normal pokemon.
which is exactly what i have been saying about legendaries for awhile now.
...hm.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:08 pm

That's not completely accurate though. First, Megas maintain the weaknesses they have being their original selves for a turn. That's pretty important, especially for defensive megas, or Lucario, Absol, Mawile and ESPECIALLY Gengar. The first three get priority which helps but it can't be used all the time and they're still left open on the switch. 

Second, you're limited to one per team and most megas, while stronger than the average pokemon, are not INSANELY strong. The list of ones that really are that strong are Kangaskhan, Blaziken and Lucario - Gengar is crazy but isn't strong in the official sense of the word. Whereas Ubers are... Well, either of the Giratina formes are the best spin-blockers in the game, hands down. It is physically impossible to spin away hazards with a Giratina on the opponents team. Choice specs Kyogre is the strongest Pokémon in the entire game with insanely good coverage and bulk and the ability to OHKO most things right off the bat, WHILE giving team support. Deoxys formes make stall an impossible play style. Lugia can wall any regular Pokemon that isn't already at +3 and it can phaze. Ho-Oh has great coverage, bulk, and ability that negates stealth rock and a supremely strong STAB move that nerfs physical attackers half the time for the entire game. Darkrai has blistering speed and outstanding coverage with, notably, an 80% accurate sleep move that grass types can't block, with an ability that makes it do damage, to boot. Xerneas sets up two quiver dances in a single turn and is the best offensive and second best defensive type in existence. Arceus is godly - officially godly. Besides Kyogre He is the best thing in the game and is one of Kyogre's best counters, depending. Mewtwo is to OU as Lucario is to NU, so there's that. Genesect is relatively "meh", if by "meh" you mean unanimously makes people agree that OU with Genesect allowed rapidly becomes a tier made only of Genesect. Reshiram and Zekrom have (relatively) unique typing with great offensive coverage and resistances, and have the bulk and moves to make use of it. Rayquaza hands-down is the best mixed set-up sweeper we've seen since it's arrival. The point is, all of these guys have their counters - Kyogre is stonewalled by Shedinja, notably - but that's never changed anything. They're still all blatantly OP and for most people impossible to handle in a single team of six. Even if you only are allowed one, against anyone who knows what they're doing, you will likely lose all of your matches except those with a legend you can definitely counter, assuming the opponent doesn't pack 5 counters to that counter, and no team can have that many threats checked. And some of them (most of them...) don't even HAVE any notable or useable counters outside of Ubers.

And finally, they can't use items. That's actually seriously, seriously huge. Most of the megas we've seen, even the shitty ones, would be banned with items somehow available. Life orb/Leftovers Gengar/Scizor, Choice Band Mawile, Black Sludge Venusaur, Specs Alakazam, Scarf Garchomp. If Ubers didn't have access to items, they'd be much more manageable. Giratina, Lugia and HoOh without Lefties, Kyogre without Scarf or Specs, Xerneas without White herb: those are major nerfs. They'll all still be really strong, and some will manage without items, (Mewtwo?) but available in regular play with 6-of they'd be too much for any regular player to handle. And that's what the Ubers tier is for.

*note: most of the Ubers accolades were from gen 5 and are probably still appropriate.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Gelatino on Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:45 pm

the main thing i don't like about mega gengar is that you have regular gengar speed for the first turn
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:07 pm

Regular Gengar speed is pretty good, though. You miss out on what, Starmie, the Lati twins, Alakazam, scarfed T-Tar? Can't think of anything else that's relevant.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:51 am

Ummm, mega Absol and debatably Talonflame I guess. Oh, and other Gengar. Jolteon and Aerodactyl probably aren't key threats.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jan 08, 2014 6:08 pm

Putting up a team draft but before I do: adding to my above answer, Espeon that don't run HP fire. Speed tie and KO with Psyshock.

Okay. So. On to the pokemon.
[If anyone wants to add pictures themselves they're welcome but I'm on my phone and it's awkward]
[Full sets not listed because draft also lazy]

Talonflame.
Swords Dance sweeper, Sky Plate, some HP EVs.
SD, Flare Blitz, Brave Bird, Roost.
Absolutely amazing Pokemon. Short of staying in on a sudden rock move (I do not like Captain's Mienshao) or other Rotom W it is really easy to get an SD going. Checks any heavy offense team, as well as threats like Lucario (sometimes), Blaziken (if playing online) mPinsir, BD Azumarill, mVenusaur, loads of others. Seriously excellent. Only flaw is I have to choose between sweeping and checking; if Tflame goes for a sweep it's gonna die quickly, leaving me short of the godsend that is priority brave bird. Mainstay regardless!

Rotom-W
Defensive Counter. Well banced stats.
Chesto-Rest, Will-o-wisp, Hydro Pump, Volt Switch.
So. Much. Utility. Bulk, pivot, burns. Status absorber. Slow switchins to help the frailer guys in safely. Rotom W is incredible and another mainstay. Also pairs excellently with Talonflame, who can set up on any grass type that isn't carrying Rock Slide, and even then Burn is an option. Seriously incredibly good. Rest helps in a pinch and gives Toxic immunity which is cool. More of a support mon than an outright threat, but it's still a threat.

MVenusaur
Fully invested physical wall. Decent sp.def, "natural" offence and reduced speed.
Synthesis, Sleep Powder, Giga Drain, EQ.
Fire-water-grass core. Rotom resists flying, psychic weakness from the likes of Alakazam (especially mAla late game or regular with a sash always) is a bit of a worry but otherwise Venusaur is great. Can take a +2 CC from MLuc and respond with Earthquake. Earthquake in general provides reliable chip damage. Gigadrain for Stab Healing and Rotom KOing, using special moves to avoid Burn stalling - burn generally sucks on mVenusaur because of lacking leftovers. Sleep powder is a godsend, at worst it provides Tflame with setup opportunities (grass immunity) at best it neuters a switch-in and yeah, gives more setup opportunities. Support role generally but helps take down monsters like Greninja, Aegislash and Lucario. I would replace Venusaur but ONLY if the argument and replacement is really really good.

Klefki. Decently bulky priority screens. Light clay.
Spikes, Foul Play.
Sort of support. To be honest, klefki makes all battles a 5 versus 6 one in that it almost doesn't matter to the opponent, but makes up for it by making every single one of my pokemon way better. Lack of healing stinks, though at least fire and ground moves are easily predicted. Dragon immunity is nice too.

Haxorus. The dark horse, dragon dance sweeper.
Impossible to pull off by itself, requires Screens. But AMAZING once at +1+1. Poison Jab (fairies, works a charm), Outrage, Earthquake. Lum berry for burn/paralysis/outrage confusion, really helpful. Haxorus is there to take down Dragons that would hurt my FWG core, and also to stick it to the nasty big name threats. Mold Breaker is the reason I picked it over, say, Dragonite. EQ cuts through Levitate: Rotom is KO'd. Outrage cuts through Multiscale: see you in hell Weakness Policy Dragonite. Doesn't run Max speed, more setup opportunities that way. Can naturally take weaker ice moves like Ice Shard, with the appropriate screen few moves are an OHKO. It's important he gets set up quickly though, as he can't set up on dragon types, or alternatively Dragons (and Skarmory, and some Fairies, and maybe some steel types) should be taken down beforehand. Scarfchomp in particular is scary, but Klefki makes an excellent partner there. TBH the two combine and make one Super Pokémon. If I get rid of one I'll probably ditch the latter. Also, pure dragon typing is decent defensively.

----------------------------------

Other options:

OH GOD HAZARDS AND SPINNERS i need dis Sad
Options? Excadrill gets Spin and is generally great but sucks for some reason on my team. Assault Vest dies to physical moves too easily and sash 'Zam will out speed and KO (unless Focus Miss). The other option is Swords Dance, but that gives me a lot of redundant coverage (mold breaker EQ...) and 3 physical setup sweepers. Not a great SR setter anyway.

Donphan is generally shitty but has some utility, easy Rocks, Rapid Spin, Knock Off... More earthquakes :/ Physical wall, redundant ability. I like it in general but like klefki it provides little outside of very specific utility, nothing in fact. Weakness to special attackers stink. Dark move is a bonus against ghosts though... But Trevenant and Gourgeist are still scary with their spin blocking, burns, grass moves, leech seeds and physical defensiveness.

Forretress. Another steel type. Useless offensively, but good hazards, sturdy works on it, slow volt switches are always great but ground immunity stops that quickly. Only weak to fire, and fire has 3 resistances here which is nice. But seriously, useless offensively. Also special attackers are still scary.

Tentacruel and Starmie are cool except a) water type redundancy and b) uncheckable psychic and ghost weakness respectively. Also they don't get SR.

Mandibuzz and Skarmory get Defog... But Defog clears my screens so it's not an option. Ferrothorn adds some nasty redundancies and doesn't spin. I haven't thought about Gliscor, but doesn't it get SR? 

Previously considered: Espeon in place of Klefki, offensive presence, Magic Guard is really cool, but you lose out on Prankster and vitally it adds an uncheckable ghost weakness. Aforementioned Ferrothorn as well as Gourgeist, Gourgeist is great but 4MSS and Venusaur is so reliable. 

Big weaknesses/considerations: Sash Kazan scares the bejeesus out of me. Balloon Heatran is scary too, until its balloon is popped. Only have one priority move, so if Talonflame goes down I lose a lot of checks. Too many earthquakes to bother with more. Large Togekiss weakness and HUGELY SERIOUS MANDIBUZZ WEAKNESS seriously I can't do jack shit to it and it's ruin all of my Pokémon. Best option is Rotom, who can hit super effectively with electric... And then switches which means Mandi can Roost. Also it can Toxic it and whittle it down while blocking WoW and Rest with Taunt. Klefki has better resistances to foul play than Mandi does, but Mandi has recovery so it'll win. Kinda weak to specially powerful sweepers anyway. Ghost types are unresisted which is scary should they set up on the special side, but that's very uncommon.

All suggestions welcomed, but please provide pros, CONS and decent reasoning. I need help Sad

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Captain on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:21 am

I'd personally go for Avalugg in your situation.

Pros:
-Spinnnnnnnnnn
-Dat Defence. Even SE Hits will need a lot of power to dent you much
-Sturdy. Survive an unexpectedly powerful physical hit/any special hit.
-Crunch dem Spinblockers to Smitherenes.
-Avalanche and Gyro ball make its crappy speed into an asset. Anything attacks you and you've got a 180 power (after STAB) move.
-Decent attack to smash things with above moves.
-Gets Recover if you want it, not that I think you would.
-Rapid Spin is an attacking move so an Assault Vest set works.
-If you include reflect, this things can tank basically any physical move, super-effective or not, for hardly any damage.
-Gets Mirror coat for a beautiful revenge kill. Sturdy guarantees your safety, you respond back with a fuckin VENGEANCE.
-Some decent sweep-ish options especially with Curse to just make Gyro Ball even worse.
-Weaknesses have counters in your team: Talonflame can take Steel, as can Rotom. Venusaur and Talonflame can absorb Fighting. Rotom, Haxorus and Talonflame don't mind a Fire move. Rock is slightly more of a problem because only the comparatively Frail Klefki resists it, but Venusaur should be able to absorb most of it with its bulk.

Cons
-Ice ain't the best of types defensively. Four weaknesses, one common, one becoming moreso due to fairy, and one who seems to make its way onto a rather large majority of Physical 'mons' sets. Only one resist (itself).
-Special Defence and Speed suck ass. Sp.Def can be overcome somewhat with assault vest, bringing it to 69, but let's be honest that's still shitty for something Bulky.
-Doesn't get Stealth Rock. Or any other Hazards, actually.
-Mirror Coat strategy leaves 'Lug effectively pointless afterwards because there's like no way it's getting to use a Recover with that Speed. Might be able to if you give is a Sitrus Berry or something I guess?
-Being physical it of course has a weakness to Ghost types' favourite strategy, Will-o-wisp.
-Assault Vest cancels out Recover, Curse, and a bunch of other useful moves.
-I mentioned a positive twice so here's a negative again. Crappy, crappy Special defence.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jan 15, 2014 8:07 am

I appreciate the input. Particularly, I'd have to see how it fares against Mandibuzz; Ice weakness helps but it's very bulky and gets roost so I'm not sure how it'll go. Sturdy is a non-issue and I'm still wide open to special attackers.

Moreover, I think my entire team needs a scrapping instead of filling in that one gap, since no Pokemon provides everything (all the SR+spin guys are physically oriented. I really need a special one). I think this time I'll put my SRer as a first priority. Might reconsider Gourgeist and Trevenant too since they can spinblock. Or maybe even Tangrowth since it gets Rock Slide. Ditching Klefki means ditching Haxorus ( Sad ) but it means I can use Defog... Hmmmmmm.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Captain on Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:37 pm

I'd probably suggest keeping that Grass/Fire/Water core, it works nicely. Some good Pokemon with good resists and different roles. Talonflame is sweepy, Rotom is the dickish utility, Venusaur is the Tank. It's a neat lil trio and it works.

Now, if Rocks are important to you, then I'll see what I can do in terms of advice. I'm going to assuming you're going for an OU team here.

Stealth Rockers:
Skarmory (Gen 5 transfer)
Suicide Lead Skarmory is delightfully good at setting up hazards. You're practically guaranteed at least SR and one layer of Spikes with Sturdy and Custap berry. Skarm also gets Defog for clearing enemy hazards before setting up your own, as well as Whirlwind, a decent attacking move (Brave Bird) and recovery move (Roost). It does fall into the pit-trap of low special defence though, and if you're going suicide lead then you've got to hope that the opponent can't rid themselves of hazards easily or set up their own, because otherwise you're effectively wasting a slot. Skarm is still decent though.

Excadrill
Gets some useful overall bulk from HP but shoddy defences and very meh Speed don't do much for it. Can Spin and set up Rocks, and gets Mold Breaker Earthquake and some other useful attacking moves, which if you're scrapping Haxorus would be useful.

Donphan
Another Spinner. Donphan does pretty much what Excadrill does, except without the asset that is Mold Breaker Earthquake. On the other hand, it has excellent Def and decent HP along with Excellent attack, making it work better at bulking out some moves. It is of course specially shoddy though. Donphan does get something of use though, and that is priority in Ice Shard. Even at a measly 40 BP, it can take out approx half of Gliscor's health. It's a very useful move to have on you. You were talking about a lack of priority, and this guy has a good priority, so it's worth thinking about imo.

Gliscor
I mentioned him in my Donphan piece and here he is! Gliscor gets Defog, which is of course very useful, along with Rocks. Poison Heal Gliscor is a Tough cookie to beat. Once again though, very average special defence and a horrific Ice weakness (along with a Water weakness- a powerful Water move destroys it) means that specially you're gonna need some help.

Heatran
Which is I guess where this dude might come in handy. He is a repeated type, but you've got two things that can sap up Water moves quite happily. Anyway, Heatran gets Rocks, the asset that is the Steel typing, and 106 in both defence and special defence, which is rather decent. It's also a rather good special attacker too. It's worth noting that Heatran can't clear hazards though.

Terrakion/Cobalion
Both of 'em are quick, both of 'em set rocks, and both have enough attack to destroy some things as well. The choice is whether you'd like more attack and decent but far from spectacular defences, or whether you'd prefer the Steel typing and a hefty defence but slightly crappier attack and special defence.

Deoxys-D
90 Speed is rare for such a defensively Bulky Pokemon, and allows it to do stuff pretty well. 160 in both def and sp.def means that very like is gonna get past it. It gets Rocks and Spikes, as well as Extremespeed which is like the ultimate priority move and allows you to take out even Talonflame at low health. Also gets Taunt which is useful for stopping hazards on your side, stall, and set up sweeping, amongst others. Magic Coat is also particularly nice for reflecting back hazards and allowing you an extra turn to do something. Once again, no method for clearing hazards once they're on your side though.

Tyranitar
Ok penultimate option because I'm getting bored. Tyranitar really appreciates a Mega, but Assault vest T-Tar is pretty cool. Of course that means you're not allowed Stealth Rocks though, so I get maybe not. T-Tar is Rock and Dark and therefore is the perfect switch in for Venusaur, because it resists one of 'Saurs weaknesses and is immune to the other. T-Tar can also dish out some pain itself and gets a decent movepool too. Once again, no hazard clearing.

And finally....

Bidoof actually no Carbink
This lil' guy gets Stealth Rocks, so he fits the bill nicely. Also gets Toxic which is pretty useful. It's got crazy good defences, even if it may not quite be Shuckle (actually Shuckle IS an option you may want to think about it too), and an ability that you've said is kinda pointless but I still think is useful. It can also set up Screens, so basically it can act like Klefki only with Rock typing rather than Steel and without the Speed that Prankster provides. It does have terrible speed though, and a double Steel weakness, but you've got options for covering that. It is pretty much a sitting Taunt bait though because it's got like no attack or sp.atk, and is slow enough that most Taunters would, well, Taunt it. It's still pretty decent though, I like it at least.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

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