Teambuilding and Advice

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Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:38 pm

I thought it was important to have a thread where competitive veterans, which I am not, could help repair the teams of those who are less skilled at competitive battling, which I am. So here we go!

For this team I am thinking about replacing Elaine with Rotom, which would have Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball/Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt.

HINDENBERG Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, FlyingGem!Acrobatics, AND EXPLOSION KABOOSH


ELAINE! Cotton Guard, Thunderbolt, Power Gem, Outrage (lol). Holds a Quick Claw, definitely the weakest of my team.


AMITI! Huge Power + naturally high Attack stat + Mystic Water is its defining characteristic. Aqua Tail, Superpower, Bulldoze, Blizzard.


ARBITER! Trying to get critical hits all the time is hard. Holding a Razor Claw. Stone Edge, X-Scissor, Blizzard, Night Slash.


TRIANNA! Very varied moveset. Holds a Soft Sand. Earthquake, Flamethrower, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw.


PANZER! Very solid choice for any team. Holds a Rocky Helmet. Zen Headbutt, Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Hammer Arm.


In my box I have a Lucario (Superman) that knew Dark Pulse, Dual Chop, Me First, and Aura Sphere, but I replaced him with Metagross. I think he's level 52, and all of the above are level 79.

ADVICE GIMME GIMME
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Hytheter on Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:53 pm

Dregadude wrote:For this team I am thinking about replacing Elaine with Rotom, which would have Psychic, Shadow Ball, Energy Ball/Ice Beam, and Thunderbolt.
Bolded moves: can not be learned by Rotom.
Will-o-Wisp is a decent move for Rotom. I don't know what else though.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:06 am

I mostly play on simulators, so I'm not sure what level of competitiveness you're going for, but anyway: (comments in red)

Dregadude wrote:
HINDENBERG Shadow Ball, Thunderbolt, FlyingGem!Acrobatics, AND EXPLOSION KABOOSH

Maybe replace Explosion with Calm Mind (TM04), just give Shadow Ball and Thunderbolt a bit more power? Otherwise, looks pretty solid.

ELAINE! Cotton Guard, Thunderbolt, Power Gem, Outrage (lol). Holds a Quick Claw, definitely the weakest of my team.

Fairly solid. Maybe replace Outrage or Cotton Guard with something that hits Ground-types without locking yourself into a move? Also, Quick Claw is fairly unreliable. Maybe use an item that boosts its attacks.

AMITI! Huge Power + naturally high Attack stat + Mystic Water is its defining characteristic. Aqua Tail, Superpower, Bulldoze, Blizzard.

Probably good to replace Blizzard with Ice Punch (BW2 tutor move) since it'll hit harder and has better accuracy.

ARBITER! Trying to get critical hits all the time is hard. Holding a Razor Claw. Stone Edge, X-Scissor, Blizzard, Night Slash.

Replace Blizzard with Sucker Punch, which gives Absol priority. Blizzard in general is a sub-par move especially outside of hail, since it doesn't get to use Absol's brilliant attack stat and often misses, whereas Sucker Punch helps it with its speed problem.

TRIANNA! Very varied moveset. Holds a Soft Sand. Earthquake, Flamethrower, Stone Edge, Dragon Claw.

Looks good. Little to say here.

PANZER! Very solid choice for any team. Holds a Rocky Helmet. Zen Headbutt, Meteor Mash, Earthquake, Hammer Arm.

Again, little to say. Nice solid set.

In my box I have a Lucario (Superman) that knew Dark Pulse, Dual Chop, Me First, and Aura Sphere, but I replaced him with Metagross. I think he's level 52, and all of the above are level 79.

ADVICE GIMME GIMME

Besides what I've said above this team has twomain issues:
1. Lack of a revenge killer. As I'm sure D_What has told you, Choice Scarves are a very good contender for best item in the game in competitive battling. Flygon is a great Pokemon to give a Scarf, which could call for a change from Dragon Claw to Outrage. Metagross could be a decent choice as well, although Flygon's probably better.
2. Lack of a sweeper (set-up or otherwise). The closest thing you have to this is your Drifblim, which I'm guessing has Unburden. However, Drifblim has fairly mediocre offenses without a boost. Perhaps you could give it Calm Mind? You could also use Swords Dance Lucario with something like Close Combat/Extremespeed/Stone Edge or maybe Earthquake, which is a fairly nasty set-up sweeper.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Gelatino on Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:47 am

^ In addition to the above, regarding drifblim, maybe you could consider making it a baton passer? Drifblim is one of the best baton passers in the game. It can pass calm mind if you want, but Stockpile is another great move that I've used before. If you pass three stockpile boosts to a sweeper that requires setup, you can almost guarantee at least one turn of setup.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:26 pm

Also Aqua Jet is Azumarill's defining niche but since it's an egg move and you're attached to that Azumarill then fair enough.

Aaaand... Ditch the Mystic Waters and Soft Sands. Their boosts are too small and too limited. Wise Glasses, Muscle band, Expert belt all have notable uses but Life Orb is really brilliant. (30%!!) Also... No lefties? Fair enough, but colour me surprised!

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:30 pm

Lefties? What? You mean Leftovers?

All of my Pokemon get downed in three turns or less, so I don't think they'd do much good.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Gelatino on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:34 pm

If you give your drifblim a defense-boosting move, leftovers would do wonders

If I may suggest a set

- Stockpile/Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Shadow Ball

This set is mainly designed for Stockpile, but Calm Mind could work too. The idea is that once you get enough defense boosts, you won't take as much damage. Use Protect every other turn so you restore more health with leftovers. Shadow Ball is so you're not completely defenseless, but it won't hit normal-types so watch out.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:44 pm

But... His Drifblim is called Hindenburg D: That's false advertising!

TBH though Dregs it's impossible to take a team that already exists and make it competitive worthy. Unless it was already competitive. Best case scenario is semi-competitive and even then you'd be lucky if you managed to keep half your Pokemon and your sets; most teams are built around either a single Pokemon, a core, or a play style. Otherwise you have a bowl of marbles instead of a set of jigsaw pieces. Fun to play with but you'll never get them to fit together.

Note: If I ever call you Dregs it's not because that's a term of endearment, that's my Phone's auto complete. Whoops.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:51 pm

Yeah that makes sense. That's pretty much what I've discovered already. I suppose semi-competitive is good enough for me; I can beat my rl friends but not you guys.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by phantasmalDexterity on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:05 pm

Come on. I used to think I will never be able to win a match against d_what.
You can beat us. You just have to believe.

/insert When I see an elephant fly here
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:26 pm

Yeah! Believe! And basically wait for me to fuck up. That's the best way to win. And anyway the harder you believe I'll fuck up the more likely I'll do it 0_0 so really the odds are in your favour.

Baton Pass Drifloon. Role: pass defensive boosts. Resistances: quite a few. Weaknesses: a lot of type weaknesses. Resistances offset by weaknesses e.g Fighting types often carry Dark moves. Stealth Rock.
Team mates? Spinner. Attractor of Normal (ha) Ground or Fighting moves. Special steel type perhaps? Empoleon: resists Ice also! Weak to Electric however. Appreciates Defensive boosts: Not Really. Machamp, resists dark, weak to psychic. Appreciates defensive boosts. Hates burn, so special team mates help. Forces switches a lot, so Hazard setter? Possibly combined with Spinner if possible? Machamp + Drifblim - decent defenses, no recovery. Wish passer? Blissey, can also be hazard setter?? (Can legit Blisseys even learn Wish anymore?) Weak to Fighting! Damages Empoleon. Hmmm.

Okay I started you off! Gogogo.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:34 pm

Okay I managed to read all that but I can't comprehend thinking like that

And I don't know when Drifblim became the crux of my team

This can be your next team k
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:01 pm

Okay if you had to pick, who would be the crux of your team? I can do this kind of thing for quite a while.

But it's all brainstorming. You have to test and work out actual threats too. For example, in a team of Drifloon, Machamp, Empoleon and Blissey, a fast Terrakion setup would ravage you. And Drifloon and Blissey would be opportunities to set up. In fact, set up sweepers as a whole cause problems. Electric attacks too but Blissey can sponge those. Stall teams probably would be difficult because few of your moves would be boosted and all stall teams carry Blissey counters. There's not a lot of resistance synergy either, and all of them are pretty slow. So: those four Pokémon as a single team would make a terrible team. But the individual pairings might work. I think Drifblim and Empoleon has potential. (Your current Drifblim set!)

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Hanky Panky on Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:22 pm

I'm gonna necro this thread because i want to talk about leads. I like using Crobat as a lead. Even though its movepool is kind of shallow, the right combination is pretty versatile. I'm sure most of you already know this, though.

What lead pokemon do you prefer?


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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Dregadude on Sun Aug 04, 2013 2:54 pm

In my team I usually use Amiti as a lead, because of his varied moves.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by phantasmalDexterity on Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:05 pm

One that has Hypnosis. maps
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Hanky Panky on Sun Aug 04, 2013 3:09 pm

phantasmalDexterity wrote:One that has Hypnosis. maps

.................................................................................

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:49 pm

Eh. Leads aren't as good as they were last gen because of team previews; that's not me quoting smogon, it's actually a huge difference I've personally experienced. Last gen I tried Azelf, Aerodactyl, Infernape I think, a few more but I've forgotten them. Oh, Machamp too. This time 'round? My sun team never used one really other than Ninetales where possible, but it wasn't a lead, just something to set up sun whenever. Likewise for my Politoed and Donphan. 3/5 times I 'lead' with Politoed for Rain and a speedy Hydro Pump KO, but then Donphan sets up rocks and KO's focus sashers and is really good against the majority of things Politoed is weak to, so she's closer to a lead role. But only because I can see the opponents team and predict their first Pokemon! So it doesn't count. I think a lead can have a profound effect on a game but dedicated leads as an official niche (e.g tank, sweeper) are dead. Nowadays they can't afford to specialise or they're an often wasted team slot.

Nevertheless, picking the correct first Pokémon in a game is really important. You rarely want your first move to be a switch, and making your opponent do so instead is a great advantage.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:51 am

I play UU quite a bit on Showdown, and you tend to see things like Frosslass and Accelgor used as dedicated leads (especially Frosslass). I never experienced the "lead metagame" of DPP, but I still see dedicated leads every now and then; things like the aforementioned Frosslass, and Deoxys-D, which was banned for being too good a lead.

Leads aren't dead, they're just limited by team preview and definitely have been forced to diversify in some respects.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by d_what on Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:53 am

...but dedicated leads as an official niche (e.g tank, sweeper) are dead. Nowadays they can't afford to specialise or they're an often wasted team slot...

...Leads aren't dead, they're just limited by team preview and definitely have been forced to diversify in some respects...

Emphasis added. Certainly leads exist, Deoxys-D being a really excellent example. That thing was CRAZY. But the point stands, dedicated leads are dead. Deoxys was reusible at any point in a match, and Frosslass and Accelgor are so frail that the general term is suicide lead; I.E they perform one function and die, so in terms of supplying multiple roles, well, they're only leads because they can't so much else. In fact, they are notable being the 'new' kind of lead, being so frail. The 4th gen metagame had a lead sub-meta of its own and leads came in every flavour. They were also something that every team had, as mandatory, and they had their own matchups (e.g Weavile being good against standard taunt/sash leads but useless against everything else). So yeah, leads as they were once known (and best at) really are dead, especially since a lead was designed to take down other leads and that doesn't happen anymore. I would argue that now we have lead style pokemon. Don't forget, Accelgor and Frosslass are both weak to SR so outside of the first Pokemon sent out (as in, not-affected-by-SR) they're a huge liability.

I actually miss the lead metagame. It was fun. But knowing what your opponent packs is more important nowadays I think. It sort of defines what strategies you use mid-game - a personal example being 'do not send out a vaporeon to wall if your opponent has a Swords Dance Toxicroak and you don't have any counters to it.' Yup. That's a big no-no.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Sun Sep 01, 2013 10:17 am

Recently, I've been experimenting in OU with a team based around using Prankster Tailwind users to sweep with high attack Dragon-types. Currently I've got:
LO Haxorus
CB Kyurem-B
Scarf MoxieMence
SubSeed Whimsicott (with Tailwind)
AcroSub Tornadus (with Tailwind)
Swords Dance Scizor (with Tailwind)

It's a gimmicky strategy, but it's also quite fun. Right now I feel that Scizor isn't incredibly useful, but everything else has done pretty well.
Any advice?
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Hanky Panky on Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:32 pm

I really don't have any advice for your team. I don't know enough about the competitive scene to say yeah that's good or what not.

I finished training my special sweeper nidoking and i was really hoping to hatch a neon blue one to be cool. oh well. I like purple.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:58 am

Sheer Force Nidoking? Man that thing is cool. What moves are you running on it?
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Hanky Panky on Mon Sep 02, 2013 11:16 pm

Earth Power, Ice Beam, Flamethrower, Substitute. I think. Subbing makes it easier to predict. I basically C/P-ed a smogon setup. Though I think I might swap it out for something different like Thunderbolt to just have an all-out attacker. He's more for fun than he is to actually try to win. I just really missed my Nidoking from my FireRed nuzlocke years ago, and I thought I'd pay tribute by raising Mordred.

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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

Post by Xaber on Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:34 am

I'd suggest replacing Flamethrower with Thunderbolt, since Ice Beam gives you coverage on Grass-types, and Flamethrower/Fire Blast is only on the Smogon set to hit Grass-types along with Bronzong and Heracross (which are both major UU threats). Thunderbolt gives better all-round coverage along with Ice Beam killing Grass-types.

On another note, since nobody really had any advice last time I posted this team, I thought I'd post the full sets. Notes below.

Spoiler:
Haxorus @ Life Orb
Trait: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 132 Spd / 124 HP
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dual Chop
- Earthquake
- Superpower

Enough speed to beat everything up to Scarf Gengar with Tailwind support, coverage to KO most things that aren't Skarmory.

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 Atk / 148 Spd / 32 HP / 76 SAtk
Naughty Nature
- Outrage
- Fusion Bolt
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Speed gives the same Tailwind speed tier as Haxorus, SAtk evs let him 2HKO standard Ferrothorn with HP Fire outside of rain (in rain, I just use Outrage and hope for the best). Also has a chance to 2HKO Skarmory in rain.

Salamence @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Moxie
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SAtk
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Claw
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast

Standard Scarf MoxieMence. Revenge killer + lategame sweeper.

Whimsicott @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 12 HP
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SDef
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Tailwind
- U-turn

SubSeed Whimsicott with a twist. The twist being Tailwind. Usually I use this as a lead if I think they're sending in a non-hazard stacker. SubSeed until I can't sub, then Tailwind as it's KOed.

Scizor (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Atk / 216 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Tailwind
- Bullet Punch
- Swords Dance
- Baton Pass

Looking at this right now... ugh. Definitely replacing it, although not sure with what. What the hell was I thinking here?

Tornadus (M) @ Flying Gem
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Jolly Nature
- Acrobatics
- Superpower
- Substitute
- Tailwind

Acrobatics Tornadus hits really hard, and threatens quite a lot. SR weakness doesn't mean much with the suicidal nature of the set. Set up a sub (hopefully on a switch), smash something with Flying Gem Acrobatics, then Tailwind.
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Re: Teambuilding and Advice

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